[Whiz Pill Podcast 59] The Human Side of Gaming With Daisy Mae

This is a conversation transcript & audio archive with Daisy, a London based 3D Artist aspiring game industry worker encountered on Twitter (Now X).

A few bullet points covered in the discussion.

• Introduction of Daisy as a 3D artist trying to re-enter the field

• Daisy's interest in games stems from childhood exposure and family influence

• Evolution of Daisy's career interests from concept art to 3D art

• Exploration of narrative creation as a career path, influenced by film background

• Discussion on layoffs in the gaming industry, attributed to corporate overconfidence, trends, and greed

• Shared anti-corporate sentiment among industry professionals

• Comparison of experiences between corporate jobs and service industry jobs

• Insights into running a business from a service industry perspective

• Examples of dealing with difficult customers and maintaining camaraderie among staff

• Personal anecdotes about encountering disrespectful behavior from customers in the restaurant business

The session was hosted on Discord, you can listen live by joining our Whiz Pill server.

Additionally you can also join our “Creator’s Hangout” group chat on Instagram, DM Whiz Pill.

Follow Daisy.

Enjoy the episode folks, and participate in the live Q&A next time if you are able to.

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Transcript

00:04

Okay. So if you wouldn't mind, I guess starting with, you know, who you are, what you do, what your interests are, we can kind of like branch off from there. That'd be great. Yeah. So my name's Daisy. I'm a 3D artist for, well, trying to get into 3D art again,

00:34

and

00:37

Burning much? Eh, I guess I like games as hobbies. Actually-

00:46

And briefly out of curiosity, like what about games specifically appeal to you? You know, like what made you want to seriously consider that as a career path potentially? I think it was when I was younger, so I've always been around games, my parents have always been around just technology in general and they used to play...

01:14

video games like EverQuest and stuff, thus then me and my older brother did. And I like figured out, or found out rather, that you could make games from when my older brother decided that was going to be his career path. It didn't end up being anyway, but it was kind of like, I took that for granted that this medium was a thing. I didn't know people were behind it, it just kind of didn't occur to me as a kid.

01:43

So as soon as I figured that out, that's when I thought, oh, that's what I want to do. And initially it was actually concept art that I wanted to do. And then it just kind of evolved from there throughout the years, figuring out what I can do, how much support I can get, and that sort of thing. Yeah, that makes sense. And you know what? Talking to you sort of reminded me

02:13

this whole time, I truly have a lot of potential to break it into the gaming industry. Simply because, and I didn't think about it too hard then, but talking to you more and more made me realize that there's a need for narratives. And initially I wanted to get into film because actually I've done a lot of film programs, I've been a professional filmmaker and photographer

02:43

At this point in time, I'm physically and not mentally disabled, so it's not exactly a viable option to just slog around a bunch of equipment all day. So I started to look into ways to pivot, to take that formal photography slash filmmaking experience and then convert that into something that I can build a brand and an identity around and...

03:13

hopefully even potentially an IP around too. Cause I'm just like yourself, I've grown up with tech, I've grown up with technology and it's a no brainer that I would fit right into this industry, letter gloves. Oh, definitely. Yeah. Especially with narratives, I find that a lot of people seem to be creating that sort of experience to relate to more and more.

03:42

from what I can see on social media. Mm-hmm. And some of the tweets I've been seeing flying around the timeline that you probably saw yourself too. It's like, it's a wave of layoffs going on. Riot Games got hit. Gearbox got hit. Xbox. Basically every company under the sun is getting hit. As far as you can tell, like what's the...

04:07

What's the common thread here? Like what's causing this mass wave of layouts in your opinion? And I think a lot of overconfidence with the companies that have gone through all these laughs and stuff, especially during COVID when everybody could work from home. And you know, you didn't have the overheads of renting out offices and sorting equipment out because you didn't.

04:36

you didn't have to deal with that because of government regulations. So you can hire a lot more people if you don't have the overheads and they take care of themselves in terms of the equipment and stuff, unless you need something pretty specialist. And I'd say for a company as well, it's pretty cheap to equip some of your employees with the tech that they need if they need an upgrade.

05:05

it's likely that they don't because anyone who is working as a 3D artist or anything like that is going to have the equipment necessary to be able to do it anyway. But yeah, I think a lot of it comes down to the overconfidence that, you know, these situations of like live service games, for example, it's a big one.

05:34

see that, they see the money that comes out of a live service game. I think an example that I can think of is probably something like Apex Legends. You see the money that comes out of that and they latch on to that. But because games take so long to create, by the time the live service word has been and gone, they're still making the game that's not in the trend anymore.

06:05

they kind of lose a lot of money from investing too much time and affection into something that is just a wave, a kind of trend, I guess. And then of course there's just the greed, corporate greed in general, like with any business. If one of your pockets are lined then...

06:33

It can keep lining them if you fire a lot of people because then your profits are going to look better because you don't have the cost of labor as high. And as far as I can tell, would you say that the anti-corporate sentiment is a shared feeling amongst everyone in the industry or is it more of a mixed bag?

07:01

from what I can see and the like-minded people kind of flop together when it comes to this mindset of this kind of sucks and isn't okay and why should anybody, any of these artists, any of these people who are putting time and effort into their passion, but track like this.

07:32

I mean I'm biased in saying bootleg, but bootleg essentially. And say well they're obviously you know going to try and make money so we just have to deal with it. Which yes they're obviously going to try and make money and more and more money. No we shouldn't have to deal with it in my opinion. Because where the hell is that money going you know?

07:55

And I feel like from a management perspective, there's a lot to be desired across the board in the corporate world in general. I briefly worked in the corporate world, I had a taste of it, but the majority of the work that I've done coming up as a, you know, y'all wee lads, you know, 10, 18 years all the way to, you know, early 20s.

08:24

actually was the service industry. And I learned a lot from that time, to be honest, because it occurred to me that a lot of the people skills that I kind of picked up along the way, working these jobs, translates pretty well across the board to other places. But also it gave me a sense of appreciation too, in terms of not taking the other jobs for granted.

08:54

credit words to these corporate type of jobs, but it does offer a certain level of, at all, view safety, right? In terms of, you know, the revenue and also the kind of network effect that comes with being part of that particular establishment and the potential to branch out to other things, you know, that's something I think should not be discredited.

09:24

But at the same time, for sure, it's a lot of great going on. And no one really knows for sure why that's a thing. But what I can tell you, though, from my perspective, as someone who came from the service world, in the restaurant business specifically, which I've grown up in, and my mom actually had her own chain of restaurants. And I also worked in five-star restaurants in New York. And

09:52

It was a lot to take in, man. Because I'm not playing devil's advocate here, to be clear. I'm more so kind of giving up a sense of pulling back the curtain of what it takes to run a business on the back end. It's never as simple as people are greedy and therefore will be evil. I genuinely think that.

10:16

When it comes to the restaurant business specifically, although I've run into my fair share of people that were shitty to me as an employee, by and large, people did look out for me in terms of me being relatively comfortable in terms of not standing around all day, also taking breaks and eating all the meals I've worked at those places were provided for.

10:45

it came at no cost of my paycheck. So, and that's in addition to the fact that a lot of the people that I've worked with in these industries are pretty vocal about how shitty being a server or a dishwasher or really being anything in the restaurant business can be. But nonetheless, there's a sense of camaraderie that exists in that sort of environment. I don't know if you've seen that show called

11:15

the bear, but it's actually a pretty good example of what that environment can look like. I highly recommend you go watch it if you're curious to look into the life of what it's like to work in a restaurant. But yeah, it's intense. You deal with angry customers. I've seen people literally get thrown out the window because of a fight, because someone got too cocky and started to grope the service workers and the ladies.

11:44

It's a lot, but make no mistake then, like you mess with one guy on staff, you basically mess with everybody on the team and they'll come for you. Oh yeah, I mean I've had, before I got my first job in Previz, I worked at a kind of bistro bar cafe sort of thing. And I remember this one time I couldn't take a £50 note because I didn't have anything to check that it was legit.

12:14

And the smaller businesses have, I could be wrong about this, but smaller businesses tend to have a little bit more leeway in terms of rejecting certain money. And it wasn't like it would have been a problem for him anyway because he had a stack of 20s, like it only had to do with go, okay, and just give me a 20 and a 10 or something instead of breaking a 50. But I said I couldn't take it. And then that devolved into him threatening me and my...

12:43

shift supervisor who was on at the time. And I'm 5'2", my shift supervisor was like 6'2". So I had to kind of duck behind him for a little bit. But yeah, some people just really, I don't know what it is about restaurants or service in general, just go completely insane.

13:08

I feel that for me, the restaurant business, what tested my patience the most was dealing with customers that were really disrespectful. I'm talking people that have gone out of their way to specifically insult the staff or in my case, actually even call me really offensive names and I'm not gonna get into that, but...

13:36

I'd say that the ratio of me dealing with a shitty boss or shitty supervisor versus dealing with shitty people in general, by and large it's dealing with shitty people. Like how is that? Like Jesus Christ. It's like people think that you're their slave or something and they'll try to treat you any kind of way. And funny side story, I... One late night...

14:02

After my shift, I went to hang out with some friends after watching a baseball game and I then came back, took a little bit of a break along the way at this local joint and this white couple came in and I'm being specific here because the server in question, she's a Latina and I don't know how much you know about Latinas but they have a bit of a reputation in New York.

14:32

Let's just say that this lady was being really belligerent, really disrespectful, insulting her, calling her names and really being overall like a shitty person to her. And I noticed that that Latina server took off her hearings and started to put her hair into a ponytail. And when I saw that, oh, and immediately I was like, well, that's time for me to grab my meal and dip out of here.

15:01

literally within 30 seconds of me grabbing my stuff and getting out of the restaurant she jumps off from behind a counter put her into a choke hold does like a full like choke slam and then drags her outside and starts to pound on her like i'm talking like like straight up beating i'm like holy shit dude i mean she deserved it first of all but then she got cocky and she was

15:31

her boyfriend or husband or whoever comes and deal with you and then the guy comes and he starts getting beat too. That lady literally beats up the both of them on her own and after she's done, she goes back inside, puts her earring back on and proceeds to continue as if nothing happened. I was like holy shit dude. Fuck should get hit. Yeah bro.

16:00

whoever this lady is, I hope she's doing well. God bless her. Niamh. Yeah, some people do really need a good reality check in that respect. I think a lot of people have spent way too much time not getting punched in the face for being dickheads. Yeah, and that ties back into my point with the whole relationship with greed and these industries because...

16:26

Her boss actually that day, I kind of overheard the conversation, but basically the boss was like, hey, this is not your fault. Um, you did what you had to do. Matter of fact, we can take off for the night and I'll give you extra to take care of yourself. Cause she was kind of injured, low key. Um, but yeah, that was like an experience of me noticing that, you know, not, not all bosses are greedy. You know what I'm saying? I know, I know it's very, I know the stereotype is that that's kind of what it is, but.

16:55

When you get into the more black and white, gray areas of what it actually looks like, when it comes to running a business, it's tricky. It's not easy to make choices that's going to impact dozens of employees or hundreds of employees, regardless of what kind of business you're running, you know? I think it kind of comes down to things like the scale of the business as well.

17:24

got such a can ofs.

17:28

small or contained family-run thing, I find that people are a lot more forthcoming in their ability to have empathy and give a shit about somebody on a human level. Whereas when you have such a big company that's like a conglomerate, that's when the disconnect really starts to hit because at the end of the day the person at the top isn't going to see

17:58

the people at the bottom doing the grunt work and stuff to keep the business running as anything but a number because they're physically not in the same room as these people. So it's easy to see them as an entity rather than a physical human being right in front of them with a life and feelings and stuff.

18:22

Yeah, that's really on that one. The gaming industry right now, by and large, I'd argue, it's definitely dominated by a few giants, you know, Xbox, obviously being one of them, PlayStation also being another one. But if we're going to go parrot companies, specifically, respectively, Microsoft and Sony, that would be the top dogs. And I don't know, like when I look at the

18:50

broad scale implication of where the industry is currently going. It seems to me that console gaming is definitely there to stay, at least for the next 10 years, conservatively I think. And then when it comes to the PC side, obviously we have stuff like Steam and the Epic Store, which I don't know if you all were aware, but they were caught up in a lawsuit with

19:19

No, actually. Yeah, basically this whole thing came down to Epic Games was making so much money because of Fortnite that Apple was like, hey bud, it's pimping time. I need to get some of that cash because you're on the app store and you need to pay up. So actually, I think it sounds familiar. Yeah. So, so the CEO of Epic Games was like, actually fuck off. We're not paying you shit.

19:47

So Apple booted them out of the App Store because of that. So that was kind of funny, but it kind of goes back to the point I was making earlier, right? In terms of like the greed of these corporations. I think that's definitely a clear cause a sub greed happening here because you can clearly see that Apple is such a trillion dollar company, right? We're talking the kind of revenue that for a one person

20:18

It's mind blowing how much money that is. Like you could never spend that much money even in a thousand lifetime. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. So, so it's kind of funny that Apple of all people are having a beef with like Epic games over the policy of the transactions that they earn through the store when you buy a Fortnite skin, which I guess you could make the case that because you're on their app store, you should pay them.

20:48

But I don't know, man, I feel like they're overstepping a little bit of their ability to control what a company can or can't do in that regards, because they already, if I remember correctly, when you buy like a season pass or something like that's still money that you technically have to pay through the app store anyway, right?

21:17

the on-board re-bought system that Fortnite has at the end of the day, Apple is still making money so it's kinda silly that they were still somehow offended that they were not making money because they wanted to get a cut from the skins that they were selling on the game so that one made no sense to me even I see where they're coming from from a business standpoint but come on, you're Apple, like

21:45

I really don't think it's going to heal your pockets if you let them sell their skins however they want, right? And I'm very curious to hear your thoughts about that from like a game design philosophy. Like if you have a game that's on the app store that you have microtransactions and like how much is too much in terms of like what you have to pay to provide for basically

22:12

providing you with an access to the customer base of that platform.

22:18

Um, I think it's kind of...

22:25

I can think of it in terms of like scale. So the Fortnite is such a big game, it has made a ridiculous amount of money for Epic Games. And when you think about how many people would probably buy these skins, and especially when it comes to, you know, kids begging for their parents to pay for them and stuff like that, you're going to have millions of dollars worth of skins being sold.

22:55

And even just a small cut of that, just a tiny percentage would be enough for a company like Apple, for example. That should be fine, you know, because it's technically, you know, they're still providing a service for them to have the app on their platform. From that perspective, I get, you know, taking a cut, but taking such a big cut is just kind of like, really?

23:24

You technically don't need that. How much money are you spending on the upkeep of this? And how much are you expecting to make in terms of profit off of this app existing and the micro transactions running through it?

23:41

I think for me, if I was in the shoes of the CEO of Apple, I would actually would have come out publicly and I would have made it an opportunity to let people know, hey, we will. I mean, if we're going back to the roots of Apple as a company, it's a very forward-thinking company. You know, like the iPod for its time was very revolutionary. So was the iPhone.

24:08

And in that same kind of vein, I'd be saying, hey, Epic Games has made some major strides in the industry, both in terms of revenue model, but also in terms of game design. And we'd like to help. Like, we would like to team up and figure out a way to make the game that much more accessible to not only the player base of Apple, but potentially having some cross platform

24:38

and a collaboration going on. Cause I feel like in the long term, Apple would benefit because didn't Apple just recently launched the Apple Vision Pro? So could you imagine like how cool it would be if as an extension of like the traditional gaming experience that you'd get on console or PC, you could get like a VR component that you can import separate characters into to do stuff with that. That'd be cool as shit, right? Yeah, exactly.

25:08

I think, um, opportunities like that are very often missed, in my opinion, because, um, the- there's a formula with a lot of these big companies like Apple or, for example, Disney. There's a formula that they have followed for years and that works and has gotten them to be literally the- the sole company. There's, like I said, big conglomerate companies. They've got the hands in so many pies.

25:37

that any little risk is just not worth it. It's like when a film, for example, earns more than the amount that they spent to work on it. Say if a film makes two million but it didn't make three million, they'll cost it as a flop.

26:08

And that was just an arbitrary number, but it's just kind of where they see the risk and where they see something as a flop or something that didn't work, it just feels so bizarre to somebody who doesn't, isn't in that space, isn't in that understanding of the financial side to it at all. And a lot of it is just pleasing shareholders as well. Shareholders feel like risk.

26:34

100% even in the film industry I was having this conversation with a veteran filmmaker and they basically said that at this point in time, forget about making films for the love of the craft, you're making films to please a paycheck. Nothing more nothing less.

26:56

Personally, that kinda disappoints me. I'm someone who really values the value of the narrative presented to me in these odd forms, whether it's filmmaking, gaming, or even music to be honest. I can tell that as I've grown older, and maybe share a similar sentiment, the commercial products that come

27:24

out of the entertainment space are so much more diluted now because it's mostly profit driven. I'm very curious to hear some of your insights about that specifically. Do you find yourself being more or less critical of these games or other pieces of artistic content that happen to have a commercial aspect to them?

27:52

I personally find myself more intrigued by the independent stuff, especially when it comes to games, unless there's a company, for example like Nintendo, who I can kind of bet on providing an experience which I will enjoy to an extent of, you know, it's going to be reliable, it's going to be something that will pique my interest.

28:21

for things like regular AAA games or the large, I don't know, Marvel movies, not interesting the slightest because it's so samey. I know what I'm going to get when I pick that up. I know what I'm going to get when I watch that film and it's not something I wish to engage in. I want something that's unique and I'm sure a lot of people share the same thing as well with...

28:50

games in general. It baffles me when I hear people go, I just don't really, I don't really like my games at the moment, I'm not interested. And then you ask them what they've been playing and every single one of them is a new release. Every single one of them is a large AAA title. Maybe try something else, maybe try something that's a different genre, smaller dev team, you know, something that just has a little bit more...

29:20

intrigue, something that's just a little bit different than the cookie-cutter formula that's been perfectly tailored to the broad, generalized public taste.

29:34

Interesting. As for me, I feel like the main issue that exists when it comes to the all-ND versus mainstream discourse right now, it's that mainstream is watered down and I definitely can agree on some level, but on the other hand, they could feel like Barbie, for example, that it doesn't get more mainstream than that. I don't know if you've seen it, but

30:04

I have, and I also looked into the kind of nitty-gritty in terms of how the movie was made and who worked on it and the general consensus from that and I want to find out it's actually it was actually a surprisingly Hello

30:21

pre-range on a project, right? They essentially said, hey, we're going to hire these specific people for this project to make this vision happen. And you, the parent company, which is Mattel, you can sign off of some of these ideas. And if you don't like it, we can negotiate, but if you can, just let us do our thing.

30:48

And yeah, they were surprisingly like open-minded, which is kind of strange to see out loud, right? It's like, isn't it your job as like the creative to make the best possible thing you can so that the company in turn makes money? But yeah, there's this interesting relationship in terms of, okay, should we do this? Should we do that? And then consulting with them to ensure that it kind of aligns with their values as a company. I get that.

31:17

But yeah, Bobby was a very wild card in that movie when you looked at it from that sort of lens. Even to the point where the whole dynamic that exists in the movie between Bobby and Ted specifically, this was not planned by the company itself. All of this was the idea of the filmmakers. Oh, so I think.

31:45

more companies in the gaming industry should take a similar approach in terms of like giving people creative freedoms. But the problem though is that you sort of have to build a certain reputation for you to get that kind of access right like think Hideo Kojima or the guy who built Smash Brothers or who even um what's his face the guy that's known for Final Fantasy that kind of

32:13

It's like, yeah, like once you have that kind of top dog franchise, although you doubt like that, that's usually what gets you access more to do more ambitious or wacky ideas. Um, uh, or think a lot of more too, like, for example, like that's another one that really fascinates me in terms of like, how much kind of liberty they took with the license and the IP to make what they wanted to make as opposed to

32:42

what the company would want them to make to just make more money, you know what I'm saying? Oh, yeah, yeah. So like, what are your thoughts about God of War specifically though? Because we talked about that briefly in the past before in terms of like, how interesting of a project it was. So like, from like a game design perspective, a narrative perspective, like what about God of War do you think made it so successful?

33:12

Definitely the...

33:17

I mean I've not played it myself and I don't know much about the story but I saw a lot of those online and I saw the clips and things like that and I kind of know somewhat of the history behind the other games especially like I'm pretty sure there's some raunchy stuff in one of them as well or a few of them I don't know but I think there's like a change of pace between those and the

33:47

because of how people grew and the people who made it grew with the title and with making games in general, the kind of stories that you relate to change based on maybe how your life is changing as well. So if I look at it from a very superficial lens of not having played the games and not knowing much about...

34:16

the people behind them in depth. It kind of seems to me like the original games were very

34:28

Like, representative of being a young guy with a lot of women and looking essentially like a god, you know, that's the kind of power fantasy that you'd have. I find having being a young guy, not that I'd know myself, but then growing up, going through life, maybe you know, having kids, you start to re-evaluate what's important to you.

34:58

and then shared experience with other people as well who were at the same stage when you were younger and then compared to now everyone generally kind of goes in that direction. So I think yeah, the shared experience of a lot of people seeing themselves in their characters, especially guys who were recently fathers or had a fatherhood experience for sure.

35:28

You're very much right on the money in terms of the raunchy stuff, by the way. I've played almost all of them up until the PS4 version. I can definitely say the PS2 version was, if I remember correctly, mature, as in the rating. And there's sections in there where you can literally have sex with the NPCs to get more

35:57

a power up. I didn't think too deep about it back then, but in hindsight, as a kid, I had no business playing a game like that. I hope one of them are quick timing then. Yeah. I don't know why. Yeah, it's like literally like you, what I remember is like you walk into a room and it's just like sexy like Greek goddess or whatever. And they don't show you anything, but.

36:24

You can sort of like see the shadows and you can hear like the sounds and some of these definitely getting real in that room. So it's like, holy shit, bro. Like, I don't know what they were smoking in the writers room, but whoever came up with that, like they were wild for that. I don't think, I don't think a game like that would fly today. And the current climate, do you agree? Yeah, no, I think.

36:51

I think back then it was a bit more Wild West, you kind of had your companies coming out that would make bigger games and stuff but there was I guess less regulation to be had around those sort of subjects because gaming was generally considered a very male thing.

37:13

and some people probably still think it is but I think it's definitely broadened in terms of demographic but way back then it was just guys making games and seeing what kind of shit they could go away with for a lot of it and I can imagine that a lot of it was just do you know what'd be fucking funny we had a quick time event of sex you know that just sort of stupidity and then implementing it just for the funsies

37:43

Because who else would? But like, generally asking like your thoughts as a woman in the industry, and also as a woman who enjoys media, what are your thoughts on the literature themes in media and how they're handled, particularly regarding female characters? Do you think it's in poor taste that a quick time event like that just basically

38:10

uses the female character as like the butt of the joke? Or do you think, I mean, if it's sex depicted in media, then you know, it's sex just like in real life, right? Like what's the harm? What's your take on that?

38:40

that trope is used. How many times something is portrayed as a specific thing. So how many times for example, a woman in a game or something is portrayed as very like the ideal form of big tits, big ass, you know, perfect hourglass figure and stuff. A. That's cycle and basically take like Tomb Raider, basically every female fighter character ever.

39:08

you know, that type of shit. Oh, because to me there's nothing wrong with having characters based on sex appeal at all, because it's just kind of the human nature is to be attracted to that sort of thing or want to see that sort of thing. But it's the frequency at which that is the case and how

39:33

and the word saturated the media is with that specific trope because then it gets to be, you know, I think people underestimate how much media does affect their view on things. Same with things like politics for example. People don't realize how much media

40:01

is based on politics, whether they like it or not. And thus also don't realize how much seeing specific themes or tropes in media, especially when it's so mass produced and mainstream will shape their worldview. So that's why I emphasize frequency, because if we have a variety, it's whatever. You know, everyone's going to have different tastes, everyone's going to want to make a game.

40:31

that appeals to them or would appeal to the people that they wanted to appeal to. But I think, yeah, the problem would be is how things are pushed and how things are portrayed.

40:51

I was going to go somewhere else with that and the thought's gone. Well, don't worry about that to be honest. Like the goal as usual is not to have the answers, is to walk the path. And there is no way even bring it up with the whole depiction of sex and media, or violence and media for that matter of fact. It's that...

41:17

There's this classic saying, right? That like arts imitate life and life imitates arts. And I think, might be a bit of a hard take here, but I generally think that actually it's not the case that life imitates arts or art imitates life. I do think that people inherently, no matter what they do, these themes will all bound to show up. So to kind of like give you like a broad

41:46

general example of what that would mean if you take a sample size of say a hundred people, right? And you should shift them off to like, say Mars or some shit. I promise you, like, assuming that none of them are related, it's only a matter of time before some sexy shit starts to go on in there, you know what I'm saying? It's just people being people. Similarly, assuming that

42:15

they're in a position where, you know, it's the fan and they start to argue and it gets so bad in fact that they start to fight over it, that it's only a matter of time before someone gets killed, you know? So, yeah, so, so it's a reflection of human nature, if anything, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, definitely. So, so personally, I'm not that offended at like, seeing that stuff depicted in the media that I consume, because if anything,

42:44

It's an accurate depiction of the human experience, you know, like I would actually be shocked if I never saw any of it. Yeah, exactly. I think there's a lot of hubbub about that kind of thing, you know, particularly with how women are portrayed in media and stuff because it's, when you point it out to a lot of people, they don't really want to accept that.

43:10

they are viewing something through a lens of somebody very specific. Somebody's had to make that, somebody's had to have a taste of, you know, what kind of stuff they like or don't like and they've made choices and pushed certain designs for a character, for example, based on also mass appeal, but what they see as appropriate or what they would want to see, you know.

43:39

these things with how women are portrayed in, for example, games. People get kind of uppity about it and go, what are you talking about? It's just a character. Yeah, it's just a character to an extent. There's always something behind it. There's always a human experience behind that. And when you only see it through the one lens, that's when it becomes a problem. Because it's like, well, I'm sure there's a bunch of other lenses that we can view this in.

44:08

see some different ones, you know? So for example, like the game Last of Us where, if I remember correctly, it was one of the first examples, mainstream examples anyway, of having a lesbian couple featured as the mainstay of the cast of the game, right? From what I can tell, yeah. Yeah. So, so in that regard, that's, that's representation slash representation.

44:38

mature themes don't write to you? Um... It's cause I'm pretty sure there's like, I'm pretty sure, like I have to refresh my memory, but I'm pretty sure there's like a full blown sex scene in there. I'm pretty sure. Like, like as in like, girl on girl action, they don't obviously show anything, but, um, it's definitely implied that they are like that busy in there, you know what I'm saying? Oh, I think, um...

45:07

I've still not played The Last of Us 2 either to be sure. I think I got through number one as a teenager and got too scared and kind of didn't go back to it. But I think it's kind of, you see it more as an active choice when it comes to minority representation and it shouldn't be the case. And I think a lot of people, that's when they pick up on it because

45:36

you know, oh well you've seen lesbians in media and that's an active choice and you're just kind of pandering and stuff but for some reason all the other choices of straight representation weren't an active choice. That's just the standard if you go on, I mean that's how people view it for some reason. But it kind of depends on the intent to represent and how things are handled I guess.

46:04

Because one of the worst things to do from these larger come is anyway, in my opinion, is to have a minority representation, which is just kind of shoe-holed in there to be like, oh, look at us, we did a good thing, you know, but so, forward thinking and modern, and instead of actually caring about the story behind who these people are and why they exist in this way.

46:34

Because, okay, so to be transparent here, and typically I don't talk about this because I never feel like it's relevant, but I would be self-described as someone who is an, right? Like as in, I don't really care what you got going on, I only care that you're not a shitty person, you know what I'm saying? Like I'll date just about anybody. And...

47:05

When it comes to romantic representation in games, one of the ones that I can remember that actually made me realize pretty early that I was definitely not normal in terms of like my dating habits was Mass Effect. Do you remember that one? Yeah, also that's another one that I should play but I haven't. But I know it's very, very well renowned. Yeah, because you can basically date whatever in there.

47:34

Oh, it's so funny too because like you'll see like the Basically the ugliest looking alien like making out with like this like hot babe. That's like all blue and shit And and I'm just like, oh, I mean And and I didn't it's so funny that a game like that Back then people never really batted an eye at it, but I promise you it came out today

48:03

People would be ranting about how woke it is, it's like, oh my god, why do you have to have the blue alien kissing with the ugly alien or whatever the fuck, that's manipulation, that's abuse or whatever, you know what I'm saying? I think it might be a bit of a hot take, but I think it kinda loses the plot when people focus on that a bit too much. It's like, the game did its job, it has a good narrative design.

48:32

The game from what I remember plays pretty damn well. It's good sound design, good soundtrack, and good characters overall too. So if it plays all these boxes, I couldn't care less who they show in the game or how they end up getting their stuff together. I just care that it makes sense.

49:01

meds.

49:04

things like, you know, how relationships and things and sexuality is depicted in media just so much more. Like it's got a microscope on it, everything has to be a certain way, everything has to be very specific. And to a lot of people I probably would say, you know, if it was viable, you know, if you don't like seeing

49:34

any relationship or sexuality other than heterosexual in media, go make your own. You know, you've got the ability to go do it, everyone does. So have fun. If that's what you want to see, then make it.

49:51

Yeah, I think for me it's more of a case of

49:58

I is the representation is being done in good faith right so take a movie like Black Panther for example which it's made by Marvel first of all so it doesn't get more corporate than that you know what I'm saying because they're owned by Disney and Disney most notoriously all they care about is money you know like there's no other way to put it but like these people are so aggressive in the way they maintain their

50:27

PR and their IP and all that. It's kind of insane, but when the movie came out, I was very surprised because it was representation done right. Because a lot of the proposed idea behind the narrative of the movie was that it's supposed to feature in almost all black casts, and that the setting would also be period accurate.

50:56

and also caution accurate. And yeah, I was pretty surprised to be honest. And when I look into the specifics of how the movie was made, to find out that the director of the movie actually got given a lot of free range to make the kind of movie he wanted to make. So even though the end result is a compact product, I don't think it meditates the fact that the impact was significant

51:25

it did its job in terms of representation done right. It's not just being done as a way to appeal to the black audience and say, see, look at you guys, like we have black characters, come watch us. It was a genuine attempt at telling a story that featured black characters as opposed to solving black characters into a narrative. Does that make sense?

51:55

Oh yeah, definitely. I completely agree as well. I feel like media such as Black Panther in particular, very kind of, not to discredit any of the skill that went behind it all because it was fantastic, but like lucky in the sense that for a company like Disney to allow that,

52:22

something must have just clicked right up top as well, because they are very, like you say, specific with what they want to see and what they want to be seen as. So it's great that the kind of stars aligned up top for the shareholders to agree to any investment in that as well. And for that to trickle down and let people have that creative freedom, let people...

52:51

a push for something that is genuine, kind of. Like say for a large company, very, very blue moon sort of situation that you don't often get because you can kind of see how a company like Disney would latch onto that and go, oh, this is a way that we can make ourselves look good rather than let people just have fun and tell a story.

53:21

And I'll, uh, for later, I'll send you like a video essay that actually talks at length in terms of the movie and what it actually represents in terms of the subtext. Um, I think you would enjoy that one. Um, cause most, most people tend to review media online from this very narrow perspective of, well, it's good enough and you know, nine out of 10 will watch again that type of shit, but

53:50

That one really went in depth in terms of like a lot of specifics that I think you from a narrative standpoint you would very much enjoy. And that actually leads me into another thing I wanted to bring up to you. It's like going back to the God of War discourse and to a certain degree the Last of Us discourse as well. These are games that took a long time to make. I mean in the film industry on average a film takes two...

54:18

plus years to me, right? But a lot of more specifically, and actually last of us too, if I recall correctly, they both took five years to make. That's a lot of time, right? Yeah. And I sent you like a tweet like way earlier, and the DMs on Twitter, that basically kinda, I guess like discussed this idea of like breaking down.

54:47

your priorities in terms of like what kind of projects you want to tackle long term in the industry, whether it's like short term, long term, that type of stuff. So from your perspective, like especially being someone who's currently on the market to find a job in the industry, you know, like what are, what are your criteria that are non-negotiable, you know, like what's the thing that you personally are not willing to compromise over in terms of?

55:15

joining a company from a commitments standpoint, you know, like, like if you were, if you were to be hired for like in your project, say for example, would you take it?

55:26

10 years user, for example. I think it would be a case of, do they have the ability to, within that, excuse me, 10 years cycle to go, oh, it's year two, actually, we don't need you specifically anymore, so can you bounce? I need that security. I need to know where the hell I'm going to be when it comes to...

55:57

finances and just that kind of security in particular. I don't know if you saw a while back tweet from somebody, I can't find, his name is Chris, I think. Chris Sayers about working with Blizzard.

56:26

or something to that effect. They said, yeah, for three months you can't work with anyone else because you would be a liability for us in R&D is if you did and we don't want anyone else knowing what you know. And so we're kind of having a grace period. That's the kind of thing that would make me think twice as well because you know, if it's a, I mean, even if they said you can't work anywhere else, it's like...

56:57

in general at what? What the hell do you mean by that? Because three months is a long time to go without a job. Without an income. Especially as a freelancer too, which technically, I guess you are, right? Or is it more of a contractor? What's the difference here for you? Um, the difference is for me is I am really inexperienced with it. So

57:25

In terms of contract work, I haven't had any, but in terms of freelance work I have, through a friend who knows a guy. So it's generally how I get my work at the moment is somebody knows somebody and can help me out and just give me that little leg up so I've got some money on the side. And I think contract work kind of...

57:52

depends on whether or not a company knows they need some extra pairs of hands, but only for a certain amount of time for a project. Whereas freelancing, I guess, is just very on off, on off. I could be wrong about that, but that's kind of my perspective on what it looks like currently as somebody who's trying to freelance.

58:19

But I think for you, and I think we talked about this a little bit before, you know, like the kind of skills that you have and the skills that comes with it affords you the opportunity and theory if you want it to, you know, to go solo and make it on money and on careers in terms of, you know, pursuing opportunity in that regards, you know, how invested you are in doing that because, you know, like,

58:48

Not to sound like a broken record, because I think we've talked about this before too, but I genuinely think that there is no better time to be a creator than now. Boom. And that's not mentioning there's a plethora of tools that are available, plethora of platforms available to market yourself on, plenty of ways to basically bring an idea to life and see whether or not someone might resonate with it. And from my perspective...

59:18

When it comes to 3D specifically, Joseph Ford's here so much in terms of putting yourself out there and, you know, building a brand for yourself that people that have access to that sort of toolkit actually basically get to cheat code a little bit. As a writer, I promise you, can do that. You know, like in terms of like building a brand for themselves and that kind of awareness that comes with it.

59:44

It's much more difficult to do so as a writer arguably than it would be as a 3D artist without a doubt. Well, I'd say you can definitely engage as an audience with something that's visual quicker than something that's written. Mm-hmm. It's like, even the game you sent me, the one where the little proggy thing jumps from shadow to shadow, I'm sure it has a neat story attached to it, but...

01:00:12

I would be lying if I didn't say that what helped me first was the visuals without a doubt. So that's what I mean in terms of like being able to build a brand and getting people interested in what you're doing. Using the 3D media is so much easier.

01:00:31

Yeah, I get it 100%. Especially when something is visually appealing, you know, it's got to be visually appealing off the bat, but people tend to engage with something instantly if they can see what the hell's going on and it looks pretty. So...

01:00:56

Yes. To me, I think going back to the commitment outpouching point, I think when I looked at a game like Battlemore, obviously it comes with... It's pretty understood that a game like that, the kind of scope we're working with, it's a high commitment kind of endeavor. First of all, you have to believe in the project to even be part of it. Oh, yeah. Like you'd be...

01:01:25

It's not the kind of stuff you just take on just for a paycheck, at least not in my opinion. Um, but as someone trying to make your way up into the industry, you kind of have to have that mentality at first, unfortunately, or I guess, um, fortunately, depending on who you ask, because for me, I'm not sure leaning more towards fortunately, because again, going back to what I said earlier in terms of

01:01:52

what 3D affords you in terms of what you can do with it, both from a term of brand building, but also from a standpoint of even portfolio building and providing people with like insights in terms of what kind of stuff you wanna work on. It just gives you so much more of an edge. And I really think that in the near future, 3D artists,

01:02:21

it's going to be more common for them to basically launch their own personal ventures and kickstart their own. It could be an animated project. It could be a self-contained one to two hour kind of game. Or it could be just a straight up piece of art that stands on its own two feet. And DJO show happens to be done with 3D as a medium.

01:02:51

interesting ways to interface with 3D, not just on a computer, you can do that on VR, you can do that with AR, you can do that with even with technologies that are controversial right now such as AI, you know, for all the flight that that stuff gets but from a computational perspective what it affords the creator to to be able to do, you know, like it's ridiculous, I mean even Blender, like when you think about the

01:03:21

I'm the precedent that Blender sets on its own. I don't know if you are aware, but the TV show, Arcane, and the film, Spider-Verse respectively, they were done using Blender, right? So these are things that literally people on their own could do if they wanted to, you know what I'm saying? Niamh Yeah, and likewise with things like Blender and stuff, you've got so many resources now online, on YouTube.

01:03:51

you know, people's bosses, which they put on things like gumroad and stuff, and professionals, that sort of thing. There's so much out there for you to learn. It's just kind of an over saturation. It's just finding the bigger problem, sorry, is just where to look and what you actually want to do.

01:04:19

The information is so readily available, it's not like it's hidden secrets of anything, people are figuring out stuff still on how to make things work in different ways. So it's all there, it's using it really. Yeah, the classic analysis paralysis. But you also mentioned last time I talked to you that, well, I kind of challenged you to…

01:04:49

tell your own story and you basically responded by saying that you don't know a story you want to tell? Have you had some time to let that simmer in your head and think about it? Like do you still have a story you think you want to tell? Can you grasp at some threads to pull on?

01:05:20

feelings I guess. Like I said, you know, where we talked last as well, I talked about not being able to visualise anything very well. It's like a dream which you're trying to remember in my head. Not very clear but... it's like for example, I've been listening to a lot of music a lot more lately because I've rebooted my Spotify premium finally so I can listen to things.

01:05:48

I don't want to make use of it properly and make the money worth it. And I'm getting more and more ideas for things like smaller art pieces and stuff, especially for 2D. But yeah, I think it's finding a story that you want to tell or thinking of something that you want to kind of create is very, very difficult.

01:06:16

still for me anyway because...

01:06:22

There's so much out there that's already been quote unquote said. It's hard to kind of decide how can I put my own spin on this? Or is that something similar to what I want to do? You know, this is the part I'll respectfully push out to push back on because A, the gaming medium is very young. A, you're also very young, which means that as you grow older, you'll have

01:06:51

from so much more to tell, right, in terms of the range of stories you can pull from. As C, in terms of audiences in general that are receptive to the kind of stories you would want to make, it's actually gonna grow exponentially in the near future because people don't just play games now. There's so many more ways for people to interface with.

01:07:15

the kind of work that you produce, you know? Um, it could be social media, it could be VR, it could be YouTube. I mean, even books, right? You might not think of books as like a way to interface with 3D art, but hear me out. When you think of like classic books from like your childhood, right? Do you remember those like pop-up books like when you opened them? Like did it, uh...

01:07:44

I don't know what these are called, but basically like there's like stuff carved into it that like when you open up the book, it like jumps from the page as like a full-blown sculpture, that kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, I got what you mean. Yeah, like how cool would it be to have like a book that you can read online that does a similar thing? Like when you hover on like a letter, for example, it animates him a certain way or when you hover over certain paragraphs.

01:08:11

it transforms into like an animal or like a section of the story that is being told in real time. It sounds basic but that's technically a game that anyone can make, literally. Niamh. Yeah, kind of like you've got a graphic novel which is literally a novel but you use the AR to provide the graphic illustration.

01:08:38

For me, from the narrative standpoint, I definitely got a much more refined perspective of what kind of stories I personally want to tell. I think right now I'm very much leaning towards flipping the traditional Belen-en model on its head. That everyone knows what a Shonen is, everyone knows what Goku is. And for me, I'm kind of taking this more...

01:09:07

grounded approach of like, hey, what would happen if characters like fucking Pokemon and Naruto and Goku actually existed in our world and got to deal with real problems? That's the premise, right? Like, well, and as an extension of that, how would you as the viewer get to interact with these characters in their problems and follow along?

01:09:37

So for me, it would take two main ways. Social media would be the first predominant way. And then the meat of the actual narrative would happen on the backend. It could be on a website. It could be like on a full, full blown, you know, platform, let's say, Steam or Nintendo Switch. But ideally I would want that to be on the Switch. But at the end of the day, if in rule, when I think of like the kind of scope and...

01:10:05

the kind of narrative I'm trying to go for. It's definitely a spin on the classic like fighting game formula that people love so much. You know, like gamers, especially right now, they fucking are obsessed with fighting games. I don't know what it is about. I mean, I'm not mad at it to be clear, but it's kind of funny how we kind of have gone through cycles where fighting games have gone in and out of fashion and then all of a sudden now.

01:10:33

fighting games it's basically all the rage there's so many different types of fighting games that smash brothers there's the dragon ball fighters game that cannot fail you so then and if I remember correctly to actually the League of Legends parent comp they're making a fighting game as well so that's where my intent is coming from I kind of see sense does a shift happening in that

01:11:03

there's gonna be a need for more meaty storytelling in that sort of format. And it's a matter of capitalizing on it in such a fashion where ideally it would be cool to have like a game that features a pretty solid cast of say 25 characters and each have their dedicated stories and each have their dedicated social media pages and from there you kind of get to learn about them

01:11:33

on the front end and on the back end when you get to play with them, you can really get serious about it. That's how I envision it personally. And I'm sure someone out there has done something like that, but I promise you the way I'm going about it and the kind of scope I'm looking at for me, this is like a full blown 10 year type of project. I'm actually going to see this through for that long. And I'm a very patient guy. And I've done, to give you context.

01:12:03

I've learned music production solo for five years. I'm talking from the ground up, like from not knowing how to do anything to being able to make any song in any style and use any plugins like a Lakai please, right? So similarly for something like this, I really think this could work and I really think that it's the kind of vision worth committing to.

01:12:31

I don't know man, I feel like a game like that would be really well received and according to some of the early feedback you gave me, it felt like it has some legs to stand on and you seem to sort of like some of the broad description of like what that kind of visual would look like, what kind of style we're going for and that type of stuff so that's the kind of game I would want to make, that's the kind of story I would want to tell

01:12:59

And I'm very curious to know whether or not that's the kind of stuff that gets you excited, if at all. I mean, yeah, to be fair, I'm not very picky about the kind of stuff that I think I'd like to work on in particular. You know, I'm picky about my own interests, but in terms of projects and stuff, I am literally just happy working on

01:13:28

things that I think are cool. So, you know, it could be anything. That's why I can be quite indecisive sometimes, because there's so many things where I would think, you know, that'd be cool. That'd be a good idea to kind of work on. But this in particular, I think would be very interesting from...

01:13:55

the way that you describe it and the kind of intent that you have and stuff. So, that's why I'm kind of like, yeah, I can see this work. And especially, like I say, when I, my own perspective of like social media and stuff, people generally navigate towards a lot more in-depth stories about characters. You know, there's so many different fan pages,

01:14:24

obtuse character from an anime or a game or something like that. People insert their own kind of story around, you know, fan on fan, fan canon, yeah, whatever, that sort of thing, you know, which people click.

01:14:44

And it gets cooler from my perspective, from the fan engagement perspective, when... If you take a game like Fortnite, for example, where the whole appeal is that, oh my god, you get to dick around with Darth Vader and Kratos and... Well, who the fuck do you even have in this game anymore? Like, all these characters' additions feel so random. Like, why not do we have Bugs Bunny in the game now? You know what I mean? Yeah, it's like...

01:15:13

This makes no sense, but hey, like have at it. But the point I'm getting at though, the, for me, right, like that's the shock value there. That's the hook. It's like, oh my God, like the latest addition in the game. But for me, for the kind of stuff I'm personally going for, the appeal actually is gonna come from the ability for the players to literally give their input in terms of like what should go into the game.

01:15:40

both in terms of the design of the characters, in terms of like, thin elements like you said, but also, but also even giving them the actual source material for them to remix as they please so that, I don't know, if you want the model for a particular character that you want, you can reuse it, animate it, divide it where you want with it. I think it would be actually received pretty well, and by my knowledge, not a lot of games do that.

01:16:08

Even Overwatch, if I remember correctly, they got caught up in some big controversy where within the first week of the game coming out, they've made so much porn of it that they had to come out publicly and say, hey, guys, we appreciate the enthusiasm, but can you not do that? In response, people essentially went, they didn't double down and made it 10 times worse.

01:16:38

Stuff like that, that's what lets you know that the fandom for your game is doing well, like let them do it. This is what they want to do, like fuck it, why not? You know, I'm not their parrots, I'm not gonna stop them. But the ability to like take something that should personally resonate with and then tell your own story in your own way, I think it has potential to be honest. And even that-

01:17:05

Given that the tools coming out right now are becoming so much more accessible, I don't think it's a smart gamble to go about it that way, personally. Oh, just as an aside actually, we mentioned about the Overwatch and Pickle-Nicking Pawn, I still find it amazing that I think it's Elizabeth from Bioshock Infinite.

01:17:34

was the character that kind of revolutionized 3D Pom. J.M. Oh yeah, because so many people that are so obsessed with her and trying to whip her out of the game and stuff like that. See, this is what I know. Once you remove the raunchy stuff out of the way, a lot of what you start to see, there's a lot of actual community engagement. It's undeniable.

01:18:03

that community engagement and be harnessed in such a way where effectively it could include ads competitive if not more competitive with these established companies. I believe that 100% because imagine if instead of what Fortnite is currently doing they had this more open source approach of fuck it like you want to make your own character and make it into the game why not like do it.

01:18:32

We won't stop here. Like, I mean, how cold would that be to be able to module characters into the game? Like, and have that be officially recognized by the company. That would be sick as fuck, but none of them are doing it because it's so much more art print now and you have to follow rules and shit. Fuck the rules. Well, I think, um, one of the only downsides to that would be like how to regulate it. Um.

01:19:02

and how to kind of keep all that data, I guess, where to put it essentially, because, you know, if a million people are making a million characters, you need some space for that. Oh yeah, no, a hundred percent. Like to be clear, obviously there's gonna be some technical things that needs to be figured out, but even something as simple as saying, hey, for the next scene of the game...

01:19:29

we're going to feature a brand new character and you, the players, get to decide what the actor looks like. And we've been in a lot of contests where then they can just show up and make their own designs and whoever is the winner actually gets to be part of the game, you know, like, I'm pretty sure people would want to have something like that. Oh, kind of similar to how Minecraft does it, I guess, where they vote on the mobs, except people

01:19:58

very much question why they can't all be in the game and why it has to be a vote and you know the ones that don't get chosen just end up binned.

01:20:10

Yep. So, so last couple of points I wanted to touch upon is, is to circle back to what I initially wanted to kind of get your attention on, which is the idea of like cycles, right? Like, um, something that occurred to me, right? Regardless of like what you're doing, outside of work, or in the context of work, the idea of cycles matters, right?

01:20:39

Whether something takes you 10 minutes, 10 hours, 10 days, 10 weeks, 10 months, 10 years. These are things that overall as a creative you should think about. And I'm not saying this as a way to challenge you or anything. It's really me kind of giving you a hint in terms of what kind of future you're starting up for if you're going to be part of this industry long term.

01:21:08

trying to do stuff that's ambitious because as someone who's worked in the film industry as long as I have, if I've learned one thing to be honest is that it's extremely competitive if you make it. And what I mean by that is there are people who set out to, you know, they don't want to work for Marvel, right? They want to...

01:21:36

They want to basically get to see their names in the credits of some big blockbuster Marvel movie and say, oh I was part of it. What they don't tell you is that it comes with huge costs in terms of lack of sleep, lack of relationships, lack of everything to be honest. A lot of sacrifice. Yeah, exactly. And to be honest, I'm not so sure if that's...

01:22:04

something that should be done in this day and age. I generally don't think that these kind of sacrifices are so necessary for a creative to reach their maximum potential. Because I do believe that even though as you said earlier, that like you don't feel like you could tell a story that could be that much more revolutionary that hasn't been said before, but in a way it will still be on Shrodo because

01:22:34

no one is you, right? You are you. Like, unless you're on a clone out there that somehow lives in the shadows, like no one gets to talk like you talk, no one gets to think like you think, and no one gets to love or hate things like you do. So there's no way you would be able to make a story that would not be original. That's the point I'm getting at. So for me, when I think of these things in terms of

01:23:01

the challenges I tackle on a day to day basis. That's usually the model I operate under. It's like, what can I do that's gonna take a minutes of my time, 10 hours of my time, 10 days of my time and so on and so forth. And I kind of break it up that way and I kind of map out in the long term and short on what it is I wanna do. And I would strongly urge you to follow a similar model because as the...

01:23:31

3D tools evolve, it's gonna be more important for you to sort of figure out and decide on what tools you're going to become more specialized in. So that when the time comes for you to do more serious shit, you can actually hold your own weight, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I really get being saying that to be fair.

01:23:56

It's not something I've thought about myself, is like thinking about how, what can I get done in, you know, 10 minutes or an hour, 10 hours and stuff like that. Just mainly because of the way that I've always thought of things. So it's a good way for me to sit back and go, what can I actually do, you know?

01:24:18

And I think, could you be open to it, to be honest? Like, you're not even welcome to use me as a guinea pig. And what I mean by that specifically, jokes aside, is that I'm someone who, overall, I'm pretty flexible in the way I do things. And what I mean by that is, I'm so locked in into the way I'm organized and the way I'm...

01:24:45

goal-oriented, I know what I'm supposed to get done basically up to two weeks in advance. It's kind of insane man. Like I'm so dialed into my process right now. Even managing a whole podcast, writing my own personal private time, having a personal life, working in an actual physical studio and doing all the online shenanigans I'm doing. I'm still able to stay on top of it all with this

01:25:14

philosophy of like, hey, what can I get done in minutes, you know, in an hour and so on and so forth, you know, like that actually relieved a lot of weight off of my shoulders personally, because it just makes it so much more clear for me in terms of like what needs to be tackled. And furthermore, I treat every day like a diary entry, right? I don't put the pressure on myself in terms of like, hey, like, I need to like...

01:25:41

do something crazy ambitious right here, right now. I just do something today, just for that day. And once I'm done, I'm done. Like after the next day, you know? So I think if you kind of want to get some practice in, because you did mention that like, you struggled to keep yourself accountable in terms of like getting things done anyway. So why not just get those practice reps and then just do it?

01:26:11

you know, with people that care about the same stuff you care about, i.e. storytelling. Yeah, I reckon it would be helpful. So I'll probably take you up on that to be fair. Thank you. You know, because like, at the end of the day for me, the way I see it, I feel like sound too woo woo, but I don't think stuff happens by accident. You know, like,

01:26:40

When I look back at the history of my favorite games, they all have one thing in common. It's that someone somewhere had an idea and then that someone met someone else that thought the idea was cool and then fast forward to today, we have Supreme Mario, we have Sonic, we have Final Fantasy and so on and so forth. So who knows where this can go.

01:27:09

The point being though that it's about the process, it's about the love of the craft itself, you know, like in making that the engine of the sustainability of your talent. Oh, definitely a lot to think about. Yeah, I think like, there's a lot of luck behind things like games in particular.

01:27:38

in how things managed to get made. But at the end of the day, it's just people coming together for a common goal, really. Oh shit. Yeah. Like to be honest, regardless of how stuff turns out for me or for you specifically, I'm just gonna think of it as like, hey, it was still something that was...

01:28:08

an enjoyable experience that I will look firmly back on in terms of foundational in terms of who I become in the future because going back to my philosophy of like what I do in hours, 10 days, 10 weeks, 10 years, and years from now, ideally I'm hoping that I have at least a few games on them I bet in terms of like stuff I've published, but also a few books and hopefully a short film as well.

01:28:38

So that if I if I if I manage to do that, even though none of them gets popular mass appeal, it wouldn't matter because the kind of stuff I personally set out to do, I've done it anyway. I technically found out already did that already, you know, 10 years ago, I set out to be able to basically release my own music and

01:29:06

experiment with that and figure out like would this be viable as a career and I don't talk about it very much but I've made songs that have reached millions of views on YouTube and that I know it might sound like a bit of a stretch but the storytelling of music is not that different from the storytelling of film and the storytelling of games because even on YouTube you'll go and

01:29:36

game and you'll see that people end to gravitate towards that stuff off of the music a little right so it's not that much of a stretch as far as I'm concerned

01:29:53

curiosity, what's the music? It's like old school EDM stuff. I've made EDM, I've made remixes, I've made chiptune stuff, but that was back when Vine was like really big, I guess. So I was making like basically meme songs using Vine clips as samples, but like making them sound as if they came out of like a Gameboy or some shit.

01:30:22

and people seem to like it so I just kept doing it. And even to this day I'll do a remix of it and I'll come back and it's like fucking a hundred thousand plays and I'm like okay I mean glad you enjoyed the music but I want to do more that's what I'm getting at like don't get me wrong like music on its own writing on its own film on its own it's all cool.

01:30:51

But for me, that across narrative kind of ability to engage an audience in terms of taking all those skills I've built up over these years and focusing them into one vision, that's my ultimate life endeavor is about. You know, like I would really want to personally, I would die happy if I did the...

01:31:18

video game equivalent of what the Gorillaz did for music, you know, personally. Yeah. I think Gorillaz has always been a band I come back to as well. Yeah. It's like the way that that's done has always fascinated me. I remember the Plaintiffs of the Video for Do You Thing. That to me way back then looked so phenomenal.

01:31:48

in an hour, they've managed to get 2D to look in that realistic space and stuff. I think that's really cool. I still have my converse. And it's very interesting how they've evolved over time. They've gone from 2D to 3D to a mixed media reality kind of thing. So again, like to me from a narrative standpoint, they're

01:32:17

standard in terms of like how that stuff can be done or could be done and I really want to follow in different steps of people like that who like to play with mediums not just with the story itself or the characters themselves to really engage people as a broad sense of medium as possible.

01:32:47

Like for me to be honest, I think what would be even cooler in the future, I don't know if that's gonna be possible, but it's only a matter of time before people start hunting for Pokemons in real life the same way we tried to do Pokemon Go when that game first came out back then. But with the difference that like you'll have fucking AR glasses and shit that's gonna make you see like those characters into the real world. But like as like a...

01:33:15

I don't know, like the heads up display kind of thing. That's not a way I think stuff is going. And something tells me that it's only a matter of time before old school companies like the people that did Digimod and Pokemon lean into it and start to experiment with it. And for me, knowing that, I kind of want to be part of that first wave of people that do something in that medium, to be honest. But...

01:33:45

That's like 20 years in the future, if that, you know, like, so no pressure there, right? Right. Right. Right. Here, right now, what I'm doing, what I'm experimenting with is like learning about 3d, learning about what people can do with the medium and more importantly, what people have done with the medium, which is why I've been having so much fun researching that using my podcast and my articles, to be honest, because like,

01:34:14

In that time span I've realized that actually there's a lot you can do with 3D. But not just the classic 3D animated, you know, short clip thing. There's so much more that people can do with it. It's just a matter of using these tools creatively to service the kind of story you want to tell. And I feel like for you with enough practice...

01:34:42

I would not be surprised if you get to a point where, I don't know, like maybe you'll have a YouTube channel that in the future takes off and becomes like one of those like fun channels for people to go on to like watch memes or some shit. Because I know a few that I personally watch I really enjoy a bunch. Like a lot of them are 2D technically, but they use Blender to kind of get that 2D effect.

01:35:12

And these guys get like millions of views. It's so funny that they're able to do that with relative minimal resources, you know? These things take some forethought to make, but once you get to that point where you've had that practice, you've dialed down your process and you kind of figured out your pipeline, you're kind of aesthetic, once that's taken care of, like you can basically do whatever you want.

01:35:42

in my humble opinion, you know? Yeah, there is getting to that point. That's definitely the difficult part. I think in terms of YouTube as well, or just in general, I think one of the things that I'd want to do is be a kind of guide for anyone who goes through the same or similar.

01:36:11

the rules of mental health stuff when it comes to art that I do and have done, or have gone through rather, because there's so much uncertainty when you're first starting out and just, I mean even as an artist in general you're always uncertain about yourself just a little bit.

01:36:39

Twitter is because I want to be somebody who can at least provide some kind of insight to somebody when they're too nervous to make themselves known. And then at least, you know, it's out there, it's visible and then people can refer back to it if necessary. Not that, you know, in the arbiter of what is right or what is wrong and stuff, but just having a specific perspective that I don't often see anybody else have. And that's kind of one of my goals, I guess.

01:37:09

and surrounding art and stuff. Well, the good news is, given that I've had so much experience with writing and distributing my own content on my own hosting platforms independently, like there's a lot of clever ways you can use to actually help yourself out in the long term so that you both teaching people about what you do, but also teaching yourself about what you're learning about so that

01:37:39

in the future you can reference old material that you've learned about because you know as you advance your skills you'll forget stuff that's only natural so it would be cool to have a database that you can personally look back on where you can see oh hey this is how I've done that one project you know in like 10 years ago that I fucking lost a project file to or some shit. You know like the

01:38:06

For me, that's how I personally do it. A lot of the material I currently have dates back years. Granted, not all of it is published in terms of what's currently publicly available, but even my publicly available stuff, for me, it's really helpful to be able to go back and see stuff I've discussed a year ago or two years ago, technically, and it's all there. It's all published and it's not gonna go anywhere anytime soon, because I've made sure to

01:38:36

publish my stuff on social media where I don't depend on social media. You know, like I don't depend on a platform to post my stuff, you know, like the majority of my catalog, it's made out of X, you know, like it's transcripts, it's articles, it's pictures too. But the idea for me and the philosophy in doing that was that, Hey, eventually I know I'm going to tackle YouTube, but I don't want to do it now.

01:39:04

It's not the priority and truth be told, I don't have the stamina for it at the moment. So I said cool, I'm just going to double down on what I can do right then and there and that was the podcasting. And funny enough, it has led me to some interesting places so that I'm gonna get to talk with some interesting people in the near future. I very much look forward to that because that's really what I've been enjoying the process for.

01:39:34

myself personally is to be able to really kind of use that tool as like a self-referential study guide but also as a bit of a track record of like, hey, I've got to talk with so and so about whatever topic and really get into the nitty-gritty of like what the thing and do I learn from cylinder brightest minds in the industry or outside of it.

01:40:01

And I very much would deny you as one along. I don't know, I don't know like if this is something that you hear a ton, but I generally do think that you are talented. And I also generally think that all you need is a little bit of a push to kind of get to where you need to be and make no mistake, man. The way you feel about your skills is actually very common. You'd be shocked like.

01:40:26

If I had a dollar for every time someone said, you know what, I kind of want to do the thing, but I don't feel like I'm good enough, you know? But yeah, I'm like, I've heard that so many times at this point, I could literally buy a mansion. Not joking. And then that's why I'm personally so confident in the kind of stuff I'm going after and the kind of ambitions I have. It's because I realized that

01:40:55

Honestly, no fucking body has it figured out. And even the people that work in the industry, or that are a lot further along than I am, it's so funny how even them, for whatever reason, are insecure about stuff. And these are some of the people I was the most to teach. So it really says a lot, you know? Yeah, I mean...

01:41:24

I appreciate it as well when you say you think I'm talking it because I mean you know you get it from my family and friends and people in general but it's easy to kind of pass it off as you know they're gonna say that all people are nice and stuff but it's definitely the case that I and probably a lot of other people can't see the wood for the trees I guess.

01:41:54

is a good way of putting it.

01:41:59

So that's definitely why I struggled to see what I could do, where I could go. And it's refreshing to hear when other people can see it. If you know what I mean. Yeah. And lastly, the one thing I will say to really bring this whole thing, also called the stack. Earlier, you talked about the idea that you don't feel like you don't know.

01:42:28

what story you want to tell and that's okay, right? Or that experimenting in the meantime is something that you don't quite know how it's gonna pan out, but doing it anyway, it's going to help improve your skills. Well, similarly, it's going to actually give you a tremendous ability to improve your self-assurance in terms of, hey,

01:42:55

this is the kind of expertise I have and this is what I have to bring to the table. And that's going to make you, it's going to make you that much more competitive in the industry long term because now you've had actual feedback in terms of time spent working on stuff with other people and a out of corporate context, right? You know, you're not just doing stuff just in service of someone else's vision. You're doing it.

01:43:25

and pull with someone else so that you can get that muscle trained over time. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah.

01:43:34

Like that's for me, I have a lot of what I'm currently doing. I have one of my mentors to save a hundred percent because this is someone who's like, they're like an old school photographer as in like they shoot nothing but film. They actually forced me to pick up a low-wide camera and it was annoying at first because like I shoot a lot of my stuff digital. Sometimes I'll use a film camera but

01:44:02

She gifted me this bulky, big-ass, heavy, old-school 70s camera that weighs a ton and she told me to use that to shoot. And I'm like, alright, whatever you say, old person. But to be honest, this was the best decision I've ever made because not only actually fell in love with the process, but actually learned a lot in terms of

01:44:31

insufferable skills in terms of how I built in digital versus analog. So that's why I advocate so much in terms of not only doing work with peers, but doing work with peers that are more experienced than you. That's the stuff that you cannot buy, and I can promise you that.

01:45:01

having people around me or being in that environment as being able to soak up the experience and knowledge of other people. And that was one of the biggest downsides of having initially worked as a remote employee.

01:45:21

you know, working remotely as it is, or just working at my desk is you don't often get that experience unless you really put yourself out there. And that's something that I've found to 100% be the case over the past few months. Because obviously, I think November, for example, my Twitter account had 200 followers and now it's 1,700 plus. And just being able to talk to so many different people.

01:45:51

even from a not even a career standpoint, just kind of gives you a lot more perspective than just sitting in the four corners of my room at my desk just chugging away in her.

01:46:08

Yeah, I feel like it's just going to give you more range in the long term. And the good news is too that some other people that I'm really talking to, they're more than willing to actually, you know, talk to someone like yourself and not only learn from you, but also have you learned from them as well. So I feel like.

01:46:36

It's like this nice exchange that is not predatory because one of the things I hate the most about social media is this fucking status game. You know, like I feel like I feel like I feel like people obviously it's not everyone, but there seems to me that there's this incentive that once you reach a certain number, you're too cool now to talk to people that have less followers than you. I find that to be such bullshit.

01:47:04

And that's why I've gone with this approach of not prioritizing social media growth, but instead prioritizing actual one-on-one contact with people so that I get that actual understanding of where they're coming from. So for me, I'm not worried. There's this YouTuber that's in one of my group chats that you actually are on Instagram. And yeah, like they're...

01:47:31

actually pretty gifted with 3D and they've expressed an interest in wanting to do more with that and that's one of the first people I can connect you to in terms of getting stuff off to the races and you know just doing things you know what I'm saying so that's why I've done what I've done you know on the short term at least to be able to kind of go back and just talk to people in this like almost kind of like classroom type of setting where it's like...

01:48:00

The teacher is not in the room, but you kind of get to hang out. That's how I push it. You know, that's, that's why I personally thrive the most where I can kind of hop from desk to desk and say, Hey, what do you, what do you got going on here? Oh, yeah.

01:48:15

And it being like a no expectations kind of environment as well. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Advancing kind of hurrying you along and making you panic. Yep, literally. Because at the end of the day, for me, I'm in it for the love of the craftsmen. I'm obviously in it for the love of the prophet too, because for me to be able to make my vision viable, I kind of have to figure out a way to make it commercially viable as well. But-

01:48:43

That's where, again, that's where my approach benefits me a lot, because I didn't just take the time to get to know people that are in the industry. I took the time to get to know people from a wider idea of backgrounds. Like you'd be very surprised the kind of people I've spoken to in the last year. You know? So if that can be like one more tidbit of...

01:49:09

lessons slash insights from from me to you as like a peer-to-peer kind of thing don't just limit yourself to talking to only 3d people you will you will fuck yourself up long term um literally it doesn't matter if it's someone that's like in software or someone in finance or whatever like take that time to really take in what it is that they have to say or what you can learn from them

01:49:39

applicable some of that stuff can be. Hmm.

01:49:45

It's a very easy trap to fall into and I think for a while I've probably done the same thing. Um, it is, you know, oh well I'm a 3D artist so I should listen to just 3D artists only and that's the only thing I need to consume. Um, I'll follow people for and stuff, for example. Uh, there's a lot more value like you say and even a wider variety of perspectives and experiences.

01:50:12

Yeah, so I think, so to recap, I'm hoping that obviously you got a better understanding of the other stuff I'm personally doing, but also I'm hoping that you're more comfortable now in terms of just reaching out, because like I literally mean it, like I'm not one of those people that's going to yell at you if you hit me up out of nowhere.

01:50:42

Because that's kind of the idea, right? It's like, whatever that crosses your mind that you think might be interesting, or you think you know I should check out, literally send it my way, and we can kind of like build on top of like that and keep moving that forward. For me right now, one of my current rabbit holes has been pixel art. I've been doubling into ways to use these tools to be able to...

01:51:12

make things out of because I feel like there should be a way for me to be using pixel art and then open that into 3D later on. Um, I applied wise, but that's going to be like months down the line. But for now though, I know a lot of people that are currently in my circle who are very experienced in the pixel art realm that I can learn a lot from. And I'm going to spend a lot of that time with them basically, especially from like a old school.

01:51:40

picture art design kind of philosophy because gaming comes from picture art, you know, so I don't think it would be a wrong bet for me to make to kind of go back to that old school and then jump into 3D when the time comes for me to do so, you know?

01:52:00

So that's kind of like where I'm currently at. And the year itself, like for the most part, it's going to be like job hunting. That's going to be out of like, you mean occupations. So if I hear anything, or if I know anyone that like have stuff that comes along, you'll be the first to know about it. But I also sent you a few DMs on Twitter a while back that basically were people announcing that they were currently hiring. So if you have a check that out.

01:52:29

the I highly recommend you do that.

01:52:33

Oh yeah, we'll do. Um, is it from today? I think there's a few of them. Yeah. As you're looking at. The one I recall specifically was the one where the guy, their name was...

01:52:53

I don't see them in the chat yet, but I'll find it. Okay, I found them. It's the one that says yellow brick. Yellow brick. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, that one. But yeah, like whoever this guy is, he seems to, I don't know, he strikes me as like, almost not has potential. I feel like he's a reasonably well put together individual and a lot of what he's currently doing has that like long term viability that I talked about with you so far in terms of like,

01:53:23

He could be a big deal in five years, so who knows man. Like, get to know these people and see what they're up to. Oh. Well, I went to follow and I think Twitter's just died on me, sir.

01:53:38

I'll keep it as a tab open. Yeah. Alternatively, you can add them to a list so that, you know, it's your own created gamer list of like, stuff you want to check out. So hopefully that helps. Yeah. I started building my own after I saw the ones that you'd made. So it allows me to see a lot more art and a lot less crap.

01:54:04

Especially from the fucking 4-year page. Yeah. I've been getting so annoyed with it lately, but yeah, the list is my saving grace. It's either the list of my email lists specifically. That's all I use these days to keep tabs on stuff and then I'll have Discord and phone calls and texts specifically for more personal one-to-one type of things. So definitely if you have it.

01:54:33

considered, you know, managing the back end of that, definitely start doing so because the more you get to know people, the more you're going to have to juggle, you know, a bunch of contacts. So it's going to get confusing later on. So get organized now, better late than never. I mean, I kind of already have a small taste of that at the moment, because I have a lot of people who has essentially gone, I've just got, do you want to be friends? And just kind of having.

01:55:02

Not even career based, but just normal conversations about getting to know interests and stuff like that. But there's been a very quick onslaught of people. Not complaining because I like meeting new people. It's fun, but it's managing it, which is why I always give people the disclaimer of it's kind of like a pigeon hole. You put it in, I'll get to you. No.

01:55:32

specific offense to be taken, nothing against anyone. I'll just get to it like an email or a carrier pigeon letter, I guess. Yeah, for me, I found Discord to be the healthy middle ground for the kind of digital environment that I occupy so that it doesn't matter if you...

01:55:56

You can touch today or the next week or the next month. It's still a place to kind of like go back on and touch base. But otherwise, otherwise for me, it's been mainly Instagram and Discord for sure in terms of like little updates over time. So, so, you know, like foot for thought, I guess. Oh, foot for thought. But otherwise, man, I.

01:56:23

Yet again, this was a pretty dope conversation. Like I honestly, I didn't expect, I honestly didn't expect you to have the kind of taste that you've had. It just shocked me as someone who was pretty reserved, but come to find out like you have some, yeah, you have some bite on you, man. Like you keep it up, like that'll take you places. Yeah, that's, I think that usually the case for me is,

01:56:53

gauge. I mean, I personally wait to gauge other people. So then, and then the parents of weights have to get a gauge on me inadvertently. But as soon as I know where I'm at, I'm like, okay, what loose thing? I'll put my cards down. That's fair enough. And all the happy foreign like I said, you're a dope person, you're a talented person. And more importantly, I think

01:57:23

It's refreshing to be able to talk to somebody who's the same age too. We come from a similar historical background in terms of having grown up with this stuff, so it's easier to relate on things. Yeah, I really appreciate it. Thank you. Yeah, likewise, Daisy. So I'm going to jump off and finish off some stuff at the studio because I still have a

01:57:52

Couple hours left of doing some studio related works, but otherwise, yeah, I'm going to do something with this particular thing and send it to you later. And you can have a look at it. I don't know, I don't know, I don't know what it's going to be good to you for, but my hunch is it's going to give you a little bit of a blueprint in terms of starting out from here on out.

01:58:16

Hopefully, you know setting yourself up for your next job and what have you to get some ideas of like Where to take your life path next? Oh Yeah, I reckon it will Conversations I've been missing out on to be honest. Yeah, cuz you said like you someone you're not really Thanks, so I figured I could put some of my writer skills to use to maybe help out a little bit

01:58:45

So what I'm basically gonna do with this, I'm going to earn this into a full-blown article and publish it and kind of throw your thoughts back to your impaired person. That's gonna be trippy, but hopefully it's gonna give you a bit of a bird's-eye perspective of like, oh, okay, it clicks for me now.

01:59:15

be interesting to see. Yeah, it's mostly going to be discussing, I mean, we've mostly discussed games anyway. So my hunch is it's going to be a little bit of a retrospective of like old school game philosophy versus stressors in your school philosophy. So I feel like it could have some appeal for general audiences, but also for yourself. So we could kind of look back and say, oh yeah, like this is what I've said about so and so topic. Oh.

01:59:46

I don't know, like for me, that's how I personally use it. That's why I write so much, you know? I find that it's easier for me, obviously, to go back on my thoughts and revisit them in that format. But also to be able to basically take a look at my writing and then build on top of it, you know, for other stuff that may not be obvious now, but...

02:00:15

definitely can become more obvious to my iterate on it, you know? Yeah. This kind of thing makes me think I should probably pick up a test camera. You did mention that he is obsidian like I do. So I don't know what you, I don't know what you plan to do with it, but for me, I can definitely say that a year from now, my obsidian is going to look fucking insane. Like I'm going to have so much stuff in there.

02:00:43

Um, it was because I built it to basically be its own independent syllabus or I guess, I guess like I could say library really where I can like go back and find stuff about coding, about 3D, about pixel art, design, doll, shabang, you know. That's how I'm using it currently. Niamh Yeah. Eventually it will be kind of that sort of hope for me as well. Um, so speaking of like, you know, taskgames and podcasts and stuff like that.

02:01:13

I think I could probably use voice recording in particular because I usually think that when I talk I can't get my thoughts straight, but it kind of forces me to in a way. So maybe if I do that and then have something like the transcriber you've got, then it'd be a lot easier to fill out information for myself.

02:01:44

Lucky for you, I happen to be a bit of a specialist. So happy to give you some tips on what I do and how to use these tools. Because for me to be honest, at the core of it, what I do is talking, right? But what I'm really doing, and I'm sure you've picked up on it a little bit, I have a knack on picking up on certain threads and knowing what to pull on at certain times.

02:02:13

And then setting up the stage later on so that if I need to extract more value from that, I can. So it's a skill that takes practice to develop, but the good news is it's a skill that can be learned. So that just you doing this just now, that's technically you having learned in real time with me. Whether you realize it or not, that's kind of what you've been doing.

02:02:43

So now the fact of the matter is it's got a thumb down to sending up your own systems to be able to capture that information so that you can go back and, you know, refine how you do it and kind of build your own muscle, you know? Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

02:03:13

At least there, you can kind of start to toy with some plugins on Discord to, you know, either record yourself or record other people or even dedicate specific channels in your Discord for specific purposes so that you can add stuff in there. I know some people that do that, but for me, at the core of it,

02:03:36

What's the most important is the voice and the text. Once I have that, I can basically do whatever I want later on. Oh, I did use to have a server that I used as kind of a library and then I moved everything over to notion, I think. Just because I didn't end up using it that much, but I didn't actually understand, I guess, how to use it to a decent level of potential. Yeah.

02:04:05

I feel like it's gonna boil down to practice. That's really what I'm getting at. Because for me, what I'm doing, it may sound like it's easy, and in a lot of ways it is, but it's easy because it took me a lot of time to refine my process. And for you, the best thing that you can do right now is to literally take some time to sit down, which is authentic about.

02:04:34

Okay, like in the list of things I want to do, what part of that can I use to build upon over time? And for me, I can definitely say it was both writing and it was the ability to manage myself like in a public speaking kind of context so that I can riff on things on the fly and not struggle too much, you know.

02:05:04

And I got to a point where I'm so good at it that I can remember things as far back as like five hours ago in a conversation. That's how good my brain is currently with it. Oh, so, so that's the good news, right? The more, the more you do stuff like that, the more you'll realize that you will access skills in your brain that you didn't think were possible. And you can then apply that elsewhere. Oh, yeah.

02:05:35

I think public speaking in particular is one that is, and Noel will help, it's having that

02:05:47

lack of, lack of nervousness, and confidence. There we go. Brinch stop like this.

02:05:57

Uh, Bravery, how about that? Yeah, that one. That classic British Churchill Bravery.

02:06:09

I definitely get way too comfortable in my own little bubble. That's where I started to do... like I talked to my friend about some stuff today and she was basically saying I don't want to do this kind of, oh we should do that anymore, it's, are you down to do this? Y-N. I.E. going on like a trip or something like that so I'm kind of, you know, even if it's nerve-racking and stuff then...

02:06:38

I'm still gonna have to push myself to do it.

02:06:42

It would be perhaps helpful to think of challenges, not as a thing that you have to do, but as a natural progression that will be part of the journey. Because the way I think of it, it's like a mountain, right? You know that at the end of the day, you're going to have to get to the top. It's a matter of, you know, like...

02:07:09

Pacing yourself along the way so that you don't burn out as you climb it. Um, and maybe smell rosy too along the way if you can. Yeah.

02:07:21

setting yourself up to as well, like experience something so that you know whether it's going to help you or not as well, rather than just assuming it won't or it's too much. Yeah. Ideally though, if you can, definitely pursue things that you wouldn't pursue otherwise, simply because the brain is surprisingly resilient.

02:07:49

machine, you know, like that's what people don't think about. Once you put yourself in a situation that you have no familiarity in, then your brain is going to kick into overdrive and basically come up with ways for you to help you, you know? And once you get your bearings, it's going to go back into autopilot. And that's why actually it's so easy to get caught up in the cycle of being comfortable because

02:08:16

You've done that one thing for so long that it's hard to break out of. So whatever you're doing, you need to ensure that you're balancing a mix between being comfortable, but also pursuing that adrenaline of needing that edge of like, I don't know what's going on, but I'm here for it. You know? Yeah.

02:08:42

I think a really good thing that I was going to say then just completely dropped out of my brain. That happened a few times today. And especially when I was talking with my friend about stuff, she would talk it to me and now we're going to add onto it. And then it just went straight out. B, I would note that. I do. I have several. I should. Can you use them? So here's a pro tip. Whenever you're having conversations, especially ones that are

02:09:11

really intended to go deep into things. Make a habit of like taking short notes as you're talking with people and leaving them there. You don't have to think about it too hard. And then as you go along, you can kind of look back and remind yourself, Oh, okay, this is where I was at, you know, that kind of thing. Yeah. It's so for me, yeah, because like for me, for me, it's so helpful. Like in the entire time.

02:09:40

I've been doing that, but the kicker is do I do it mentally? You know, that's how good I've become at this point. You know, I can just kind of do a mental nod on shit. Yeah. So what it was that we're going to say, because it literally just came to me then, was prusting in your inability to survive with unfamiliarity. It's a major skill.

02:10:08

Yeah, it is. And it applies in any context, that's the beauty of it, regardless if it's gaming or relationships or friends or self-development. For me, my specific uncomfortable zone has been being perceived online, you know, I don't know if you can tell, but I'm very private. I don't care too much to put my business out there.

02:10:38

Um, so I've been getting a little bit more in looks in terms of like letting people know a piece of my mind. Um, or I guess like showing people aspects of myself, I would not show typically, I don't like when I gossip about my full, you know, after recovery, after suffering a pretty traumatic injury, that kind of thing. Yeah. So, you know, like, um,

02:11:05

It's a process like anything else, you know what I'm saying? So I don't have to be like the other people or operate at their level for me to feel like I've done something worthwhile. I just know that I've done something enough that gets me in that zone of like, okay, I kind of have an idea of what's going on and I'm aware of how much is too much so that I don't go past the point of no return. Because I personally...

02:11:34

between you and I, I'll never do what you do. You know, like I don't, you'll never catch me posting photos of myself on the internet. You're not going to catch me doing the whole selfie trend and all that stuff. And that's just a personal decision that I've made. I just don't like, I just don't like people. And I know it sounds kind of dumb and stupid, but like, I really don't like this idea that people can take images of myself and whatever they want with it.

02:12:04

Yeah, no, we live in a world where we have to basically or fit so much in terms of what we do and use every day that the one thing I get to choose, I don't want to keep for myself and that's like my camera, you know, like, yeah, I'll choose to keep that one forever close. And I'm sure it's going to make it more difficult for me long term. But

02:12:33

I don't care, you know, like I'm not trying to be an influencer. That's not my vibe. Oh, speaking of cameras, actually, you just reminded me to mention, um, I was looking into film cameras when you mentioned them earlier, um, a couple of weeks ago, cause I wanted to buy one myself. I can't remember which one it was. I think it was a Canon. Um, if you, if you're gonna get any film camera and just get an icon.

02:13:04

NIPHONE is Japanese made, so you can never go wrong with classic Japanese engineering. Yeah, I mean, my car is 20 years old, still kicking. It's a Mitsubishi. Yes, so you already know, like the Japanese got it going on, man, like there's a reason why Nintendo is still going strong to this day. Yeah.

02:13:30

I've got some resilience. You don't mess with the Japanese engineers when they know their shit. Yeah. They're good looking hard. Those spirits. On that note, I mean, I hope you have a good day. And I'm hoping that you've had some food for thought. Yeah, definitely. And more importantly, I hope this was helpful for you. I don't know.

02:13:59

For me, I find this helpful, but I am hoping that for you as well, like it's helpful in some capacity. Yeah, definitely in more ways than one, it's helped quite a bit. Even, you know, just being able to talk openly about stuff and not against your boss. Be judged. Yeah.

02:14:29

really snappy as well because, you know, I pause a lot to kind of think about the next part of my sentence. And with a lot of people I always feel that pressure that I need to get out as quick as possible. But just being able to do that and have it recorded in there as well, super helpful for me to just kind of relax and be like, it's okay to take my time. We're talking.

02:14:59

Yeah, literally. I told you before, like a lot of what I do, when I tell people I do podcasting, they think I'm like some fucking news anchor. I'm not, man. I'm just someone who I just talk to people and I ask pretty damn good questions and I kind of let things run its course. So that's basically it, man. You know, there's nothing more to it.

02:15:27

nothing that needs to be complicated in terms of the process. So I get there. It's really just, I talk to someone, I record it and I then transcribe it. And then I publish it into something that hopefully makes sense, which nine times out of 10 it does because I've grown an audience of like a hundred thousand people over like 14 months publishing this stuff. So clearly I'm doing something right.

02:15:58

Yeah, agreed.

02:16:02

But yeah, stay cool, I'll pull these tough implements for you and literally hit me up anytime and don't feel like you just can't share stuff if you feel like you're kind of hitting a wall or something. I may not be able to personally help but chances are I may know someone who can, so at least know that. You know what I'm saying?

02:16:32

Yeah, I will take you up on it there pretty soon. I'll work on this project that I've got with a mentor at the moment and then after that it's free rein.

02:16:46

Cool. Good to know. On that note, starting off and that's your round. See you later. Thanks for letting me on. Anytime, Daisy. See you. See you.