This conversation is with a software engineer and a community oriented creator providing their insights on the adoption curve of technology.
Transcript
00:00
But before I get any further though, it's important to establish also the premise of who it is I'm talking to. So if you could, in a few sentences, introduce yourself in terms of who you are, where you're from, if you feel like disclosing that, what you do, your interests, and we can go from there. Cool. Yeah. Well, my name's Caitlin. Pronouns are they, them, theirs.
00:29
Let's see about me. This is so interesting on depending on like whatever context I'm in, I have to figure out where, where to what, what bio to give and dropping right into it. I'm like, oh, what do I do? I guess I am from, I live on, I guess unseated Tongva lands, also known as Los Angeles. Um, and
00:54
I guess context about me, I have been working in software, mainly engineering for almost about a decade now.
01:10
Yeah. Neat. From your perspective, what about software would you say attracted you?
01:23
What attracted me to software?
01:29
That's a really big, open question. Um, I think originally it was kind of like this ideal, idealistic kind of, you can create whatever you want. There's this ultimate freedom and there are no restrictions as, you know, so they are in the real life. It's always been kind of like a sandbox playground. And I think, you know,
01:58
I guess, building on my bio, being a person who has a physical disability, learning disabilities, a lot of, you know, also appearance, the way I sound, the way I look out in the world is highly the way that I'm received. I'm, unfortunately or fortunately, not a, you know, white cis.
02:26
heterosexual man. So being able to play in a space that is just unlimited, I can do what I want. That was kind of the draw originally. And I mean, yeah, definitely, definitely. Originally, there's there's some
02:50
It's been a lot, I guess, in tech and I guess just working as, you know, in a lot of corporate spaces.
02:59
Would you say that bullying is a challenge for you then? I'm sorry. Would you say that bullying is a challenge for you then? I would say it's a challenge and also, like, I mean, depending on who and depending on where, it's still like a, it's still, there's still a little desire to want that. Yeah.
03:29
What are the main differences that you've personally observed when it comes to the dynamics of fitting in in this place you currently reside in versus fitting in in other places you've traveled to?
03:43
all the places that I've traveled to and fitting in in.
03:57
That's an interesting question. I think my brain, in addition to physical places that I've traveled to, I'm thinking about, I guess, just virtual spaces that I participate in. And
04:18
I think being able to...
04:24
Ah, just...
04:27
There's an idea there, there's some sort of like crafting and being able to build myself up to who I want to be. I think they kind of feed off each other, both like I'm able to take my, I guess my experiences in building and engineering who I am and in, I guess, places that I feel like I belong in, like knowing that feeling and trying to take those back to places where I maybe don't necessarily.
04:57
fit in. And I guess, I don't know, I guess growing into adulthood with, you know, personal agency has been a little also another element of that.
05:13
I think I'm feeling also compelled to name. I'm, um, kiss maybe I'm.
05:24
I guess I'm coming off of a little bit of, I'm tapering off some medications that give me a little bit of brain fog, so stringing together words is a little bit difficult for me. So, and thoughts. And
05:43
I think there is something in with that. I mean, I think I can tie that into other different parts of this question. I think I feel like a lot of places where I don't belong, there's no room or no thought or I don't know, patience, I guess, granted for that.
06:06
Did you say patience? Patience, did I say patience? Yeah, I did say patience. And I guess maybe, I don't know, I was not expecting first of all to be chatting today. And I guess second of all, like it's having that space has been kind of nice. Just, I don't know, sorry. Yeah, a little bit of a day.
06:35
Yeah, so to be honest, I feel like it's been a little bit of a day across the board for a lot of people. There's a lot going on in the world at any given time and it's very difficult for me to make the difference between understanding what's happening to other people versus what's happening to yourself. And for lack of a better term, compartmentalizing all that.
07:05
keeping things where they're supposed to be. What I will say though is that when it comes to processing things, a big part of how I do it is through conversations. And I think part of the reason why for me specifically is because I don't treat conversation the same way that most people treat conversations. I don't know if you've picked up on that at all from your perspective, but
07:33
One of the things I've realized, especially in the context of American culture specifically, conversations are pretty empty, right? It's the best way I can describe it. It's like father. It's just people say things they don't really mean or say things they don't really believe or even will say things just to move things along for the sake of accommodation, not convenience.
08:02
I never really understood why that's a thing. And in the social kind of context specifically, I, yeah, I find that to be, I find that there's a disconnect there. So acknowledging that you're, like in your case, struggle to put the words together, for me, that's a good indication that we're off to a good start because you're actually acknowledging something about you that I should be aware of.
08:31
versus someone that would typically in a similar context would say, oh yeah, everything is fine and dandy. I don't know. Like, I don't find that to be ultimately productive in the long term to just take this approach of sweeping things under the rug kind of thing, you know? Definitely. Yeah. And like.
08:55
Holy moly, I think you naming that ansiness and also having that being named as part of a cultural thing, I physically felt my body kind of just like release the idea of like needing to fill the space with an answer and come off in a, I don't know, in a, having something to...
09:22
with conversation that is not necessarily actually tied to this particular idea of an exchange of like, I don't know, connect, it's not in the service of connecting. I don't know, naming that and also, yeah, thank you for, you know, acknowledging that's that's kind of where I'm at right now. Yeah. Yeah, I mean,
09:51
So another thing I think is worth mentioning too is that conversations are as much a tool as they are a means to explore ideas or understand people, especially those that I don't typically see eye to eye with. And that could be for ideal reasons, because I'm sure you know by now that
10:19
So I got like what, how the term is supposed to go, but basically something along the lines of if you have nothing nice to say, don't say it at all, that kind of thing. Yeah. I take from me to be honest, actually, I think people should be more comfortable saying things that are not nice, not because I'm advocating for people to be dicks to each other or whatever. It's just like, I don't consider again, to go back to my original point, like,
10:48
If I'm talking to you and I'm asking you, how do you feel? And you say you're fine when you really you don't feel fine. That can lead up to some bubbled up feelings later on, whether it's towards me or towards someone else or towards yourself. And I don't see how that's helpful in any way. Right. So creating the space for that release to happen for me, that's really important, to be honest with you, because now you actually get to see where people are coming from.
11:18
you're having to guess around.
11:21
Yeah, that's so powerful. And I love that thought of like, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it. It's like, I don't know, that's so, what is nice? This kind of also feels like it's, ooh, I'm feeling a little bit cringy that I'm reaching into this part of.
11:49
particular ideology, but I think it's helpful even though it's like one of those very popular self-help or management business books, but Radical Candor, you might not have something nice to say, but people might need to hear that. Maybe Radical Candor is interesting because that book is written in the context of...
12:13
moving business along or forward ahead because you're going to say the hard and difficult thing that someone probably needs to hear, but that's like in service of the business. I think on an interpersonal level, radical cantor is kind of revolutionary in that we have been taught for so long, or I don't know, society, I don't know.
12:37
I can't say we, as in actually the two of us here. I mean, I was personally taught, yeah, don't say anything mean, even if it's gonna help somebody else. It might just also be my perception of what is mean. I definitely, I personally struggle with a lot of rejection sensitivity. So any form of, what is that? Any form of...
13:06
Feedback, I will originally hear it in a voice that is so like, I'm so sensitive. I'm a little baby and I don't want to hear anything because I'm afraid of being wrong because that's scary. And then I'll be able to like sit down and I have to sit down and process feedback. But you know, like, I think your original, original, yeah.
13:33
of like, you know, we just need to be able to say the thing sometimes, definitely. Sometimes we need to be able to just hear the thing. It's not just about hearing it though. It's about moving to the emotions of acknowledging it, exploring it, and externalizing it, and when necessary executing it too. A lot of the
13:58
If I've learned anything from the $500 or so I've put into doing this with different types of people from different industries and different walks of life is that across the board people, the biggest mechanism that blocks people have the time it's themselves, you know, the, the, we're the ones that stand in our way in some way, shape or form. And whatever breakthroughs that lead us to separate from that.
14:24
Some people takes them months, others takes years, which explains why there are people to this day that have whole families and grandmas and all the whole shebang. And you think they have it all figured out and yet they don't. I've seen that time and time again during Thanksgiving, people are sharing, the word juxtaposition of sharing clips of themselves, having a cheers moment with their family, with the wine and the...
14:53
and everything juxtaposed with the close friend story of like, I hate being here, my family sucks. It's like, well, that's why. People would much rather do stuff for comfort and not acknowledge stuff. And that stuff compounds over time and sticks around for decades, if not more than that. Yeah. Sorry, go ahead.
15:24
What's a harsh question that as far as you can tell has gone unacknowledged for you, especially as you stepped into this new year of our Lord 2024? Oh, wow. You know, all these years seem to belong to our Lord. I recall hearing 2023 was also the year of our Lord and Savior. But hard questions, hard things that I have not.
15:54
explored, I think.
16:00
for me.
16:04
I...
16:09
I acknowledged this at the beginning of the year, but I didn't particularly, well, I'm not stuck to my guns as the phrase so goes, I think. Being
16:24
open to asking for things that I need and being open to hearing no. Being able to
16:36
voice needs for me and also to be able to say no to other people I think. Oftentimes if I don't know how I will feel about something I will say yeah sure why not. Definitely always been a fuck around and find out kind of person because you never know right? But I found especially last year
17:06
coming to the close was just so exhausting. And I ran myself like really, really ragged.
17:23
I don't know quite yet what that looks like. I think.
17:30
while I want to be open to all possibilities and opportunities, I think.
17:37
I have not properly executed on saying no to a lot of things. And here I am in the year of our Lord and Savior, tired. And you know, there's people that I care about, people that, you know, I work with that.
17:56
get the result of that, of me not saying no to things that I can say no to. It's in my power to say no to doing. And then they get me tired and my work half done.
18:15
Would you say that you opening up yourself to these possibilities comes in part due to a seeded fear of being afraid to be left behind?
18:28
Oh, definitely. There's a lot of a FOMO. You know, like, if not now, when? When will I learn? When will I next have this opportunity?
18:44
But that's also just a thought. Yeah, that makes sense. And the next thing that personally makes me think about is this idea of saying no and its relationship to power. So from your vintage point, is it necessary? Is power necessary to say no? Does one have to be powerful to decline?
19:09
I think so. But I think also what the context of like where that power comes from. You know, I think my idea of that has changed. Like before it was like, oh, well, yeah, stuck in a lot of hierarchies, like, you know, oh, this is my boss that's asking, this is my, you know, someone in my family that's, you know, older than me. This is just...
19:37
anyone in general who's older than me, like, can I say no without getting in trouble? Because the way that I'm embedded in this system, but now it's like, oh, it's, the power really is that I think maybe I'm alluding to that is required is, like, do I believe enough in myself to continue to?
20:03
If it's a boundary that I'm trying to set, do I believe in myself? That, you know, I will have to draw on some inner power to maybe push back on some thoughts of like, you know, innate or not innate, nothing's innate, but things that have been ingrained in me as a way of like, as people pleasing, I guess, maybe just. Yeah. So, how about...
20:32
How about saying no to how things are, you know, like, would you consider that to be a radical thing to do? To say no to how things are, whether it's, you know, in a familial context, corporate context or societal context.
20:52
I'm going to need you to repeat that one more time. Sorry. No, it's all good. So would you consider it to be a radical act to say no to how things are, whether it's in a familial context, educational context, corporate context, or societal context?
21:11
Yeah, that's a good question. I think it depends on what lens you're kind of, we're examining this with. I think for me personally, yeah, oh, definitely radical. I guess maybe I'm thinking in the terms that radical is, you know, it's shifting kind of a
21:38
base foundation and that's how I'm imagining, I'm defining what is radical. And I think, you know,
21:52
I would say any act of, I wouldn't say maybe not denying any requests, but not doing something because obligation or whatever. It feels radical in that.
22:15
I don't know, so in so in green, I'm trying to form a thought and stream these ideas of like, where, where, where do we as like individuals and I guess collectively move move something that is so maybe understood to just be a certain way like, I have to. I have to. I don't know.
22:45
out of fear, out of need, out of the name of survival, I need to do everything that my boss asks of me, even if, I don't know, it's software that is serving people who are maybe inciting, maybe not necessarily the ideals that I believe in or ideals that uplift.
23:14
everybody. I just, you know, like saying no, you know, it opens you up to, I guess, maybe a lot of...
23:26
I don't know. There's some danger in that. And I think also by doing that, I guess it is radical. Also, sorry, I realize sometimes I have gotten feedback that I get a little verbose and also windy. The roads that I talk down are a little windy. So feel free to reel it in. The beauty of what I'm doing, I guess, again,
23:55
It'll be apparent to you more and more as I do stuff over time, but you will see exactly why I'm doing it and what the intent there is. And you touched upon the idea of acknowledgement and specifically in the context of doing things that you don't necessarily agree with. And that ties right back into what we touched upon earlier when you talked about this idea that when it comes to doing stuff and engaging in conflict, you know, like the...
24:23
whether or not that can be a good or a bad thing. And from my vintage point, it seems to me that the idea of saying no more than ever is becoming relevant in the public discourse, specifically in response to the way the landscape is changing before our very eyes. Because from my vintage point, it seems to me that at least across the board, right? We agree that things are democratic, that...
24:50
If we want things to change, then all we have to do is vote for it. That's like the basic idea that everyone can get behind. What is not so clear to me though, is that when it comes to stuff that people disagree on, there's not exactly a clear pathway in terms of signaling to the powers that be that, hey, we don't want that. And I feel like we're moving into an era where more than ever is going to be necessary to say
25:17
No, vocally in public or in private. And that personally hits close to home for me, specifically in the sense of social media. Long story short, I think around late pandemic, so that would be late 2020, early 2021, I decided to not post on social media anymore. That was my persistence of saying no, because...
25:44
Everyone I knew, right? Like that's all they did. They just posted online, they would go online, they would do all these things. That's how they socialized. So I kind of saw it to be unusual and abnormal. So I just stopped doing it. I started to scrape, in fact, all presences that I did have online in terms of pictures of myself, places I've been, et cetera, et cetera. That was phase one. Phase two was for me to effectively scrub the internet
26:13
things that relate to me, whether it's by name or by likeness. So unless you really, really dig for it, you're not really going to find stuff that points to who I am. You would have to have my actual name, my actual date of birth, and all that stuff for you to find all that. That's number two. And the phase three for me came in when I decided to effectively opt out of services and find my own way of doing things.
26:38
platforms that I saw to be no longer suitable for my needs or suitable for my health, really. And that's specifically in the context of community building and community interaction, where say a platform like Instagram, for example. Do you not see it as abnormal that the interaction that you get on there boil down to so-and-so liked your story or so-and-so sent you a reaction?
27:07
or so and so commented on your post or whatever. Do you not see that to be an abstraction and to a certain degree even an insult to how real people interact?
27:19
Oh, definitely. It's an insult, and it's also like, it's so.
27:33
There's something to the way I think I personally have experienced that and the way that it's really affected my ability, I think, to also...
27:49
I guess maybe I need to walk that whole entire comment back because I have no idea where that was going. I think it is an interesting...
28:04
exploration of like how one particular platform, the heavy use of this means of communication has severely kind of degraded my own ability to I think react with more fullness, more
28:30
I think there's definitely a convenient aspect of convenience that I see that we've become so conditioned to. I think about it in the context of how we get things on demand through online services, online stores. And it's like minimal input effort.
28:58
interaction and I...
29:04
It then becomes frustrating when you're faced in a different kind of social interaction where it's like, I wish I could just laugh react to this person because I've lost the muscle to exercise vocabulary or connect that way of connecting that I used to. I definitely feel it.
29:35
in my own personal life. But yeah, it's interesting. So the reason why I've brought all this up, is from my vantage point, these were some of the few instances that I've actively said no to how things are. I saw how they're going, and I desired something better.
30:04
I put my money where my mouth was and I started to think about ways to address it. And I can't lie to you, it was actually very difficult at first, because for one, something about actively choosing to break away from something that the core majority of the people that you, at least if you think, you know, are based upon. That's a very tough decision to make, but I've made it nonetheless, because, hey, I'm a bit of an anarchist. I don't really care in the grand scheme of things when it comes to
30:33
belonging to structures because I don't believe in structures to begin with. I feel that structures are redundant. At least in the context of modern times and a lot of the busy work that people do within such structures, but that's besides the point. That's number one. And number two is that what I notice is that currently people really don't understand what being present actually means.
31:03
is to remind others that a digital ghost of yourself exists. That's what being present boils down to. And I think that this is a very dangerous path to go down off because now effectively, the assumption is left to the interpretation that, hey, if I see that whatever digital avatar that represents you online, whether it's your Instagram profile, your Twitter profile, your...
31:26
Whatever profile that exists somewhere out there, you know, like if I see it and it looks like it's doing fine, then by extension, you're doing fine. Therefore, there's no further need for me to investigate and, you know, check in on you, then that's fine. Actually, no, it is not fine. Because how will I know really, if I don't actually inquire and more importantly, how will I actually get the depth of understanding, you know, what it is the person is going through if I actually don't go through the mushrooms to begin with. So.
31:55
The erosion of relationships, you know, that's like one of the main reasons why that I've personally just said no to social media interactions in general, at least in their current form. It's subject to change, but it's not likely, simply because the way we're currently headed, it is for me at least, it doesn't seem like the interest of the people that are using
32:25
exploited in such a way where now they're effectively nothing but a farm for them to be used and be given or fed content, you know, that's all that there is to it. And I don't know, like this reminds me of that Matrix scene where, you know, Neil wakes up for
32:55
a sea of like thousands of pods just like connected to like these little superstructures and stuff like that. That's what effectively social media is currently in its current form. And yeah, no wonder that you know, rates of suicides are so high, no wonder that rates of loneliness are so high. No wonder that, you know, young demographics, you know, in the Gen Z, you know, from age 16 to 18, 17 to now.
33:23
20 to like 25 struggling to do something as basic as having a social interaction with someone else because that's all they've known this entire time. You know what I'm saying? I'm effectively describing a society that's crippled by their own choices in a way. Granted that choice insidiously enough has been made for them without them knowing, but it's a choice nonetheless that they've made.
33:52
now it's biting them in the ass and I'm seeing everyone asking themselves, whoa, why is it that stuff is going wrong? And I'm like, hey guys, um, here's the smoking gun right here. Yeah. Yeah.
34:05
There's so many points in there that I'm just like, oh, yeah, yeah. There's this idea of digital ghost, like digital avatars, like who we are online and like what we're presenting there and how that appears to other people. I think I'm, I'm a, I'm a admittedly just
34:33
always on Instagram just because I don't know it's it's almost it's for me it's almost like a
34:41
dim like a salve of like, I have I'm having emotions and I need to put them into something. So I don't know, make of that what you will. But I, you know, I, I don't know, I didn't, I mean, I'm not a Gen Z. I'm pretty firm millennial. I didn't grow up with this being such a core part of my reality in my life. And I, you know, I can't imagine.
35:11
what that is to kind of have your consciousness like not or not necessarily be super conscious of like the persona of the online and how
35:28
how lived that is for this generation, I guess. I don't wanna generalize and say this entire generation, but it's there and it exists and it is kind of a constant. And I had a question then, now it's gone.
35:56
I know that... I don't know. I don't know anything. What do I know? Yeah. I wouldn't worry too much about these questions that pop up and out. I find that actually letting them simmer is the best way to go about it because that's where real insights come from. But speaking of the digital ghost thing, and that leads into the need of what it is. I'm...
36:25
really trying to get at in terms of where you're currently at and what it is you're trying to do really with your life because you spoke about using these tools, social media that is, as a way to put stuff out there and let off steam for lack of a better term. That's what I'm hearing from you. Yeah. My challenge to you if anything is to propose to you that not only there's a better way to vent but there's a way to vent in a way that actually builds community over time.
36:54
which from my vantage point, that's what I've done effectively a year ago. When it occurred to me that, okay, I would not share about myself anymore, I would not share about what I'm doing or what I look like, what was there left for me to share? And that was the art I was making. And even that, I was not happy to share it. And it didn't really hit me then why that was, right? Like, believe me, I have plenty of stuff to share, like all the time, every time.
37:23
whether it's photos, videos, you name it. Like I've always been that kind of creative person. But it occurred to me that the reason why, as of recently anyway, the reason why I was not sharing any of it was the lack of appreciation, not from people, you know, like as you would be told, putting that pressure on strangers, that's really not the point. But the lack of appreciation from these very platforms that have the audacity to essentially harvest us from all we worth, right? You know, our time, our attention,
37:52
or money and not really give us anything in return. And not only that, actually taking it a step further and fabricating a version of reality that is not true whatsoever. You know what I'm saying? So that's when I knew that, okay, this is, I cannot in good conscious continue with this and I need to find a way to actually stick to the truth of what it is I'm doing. And more importantly, I have it be
38:22
built in a way that search roof can resonate with people regardless of what platforms they're on. And that's when I started to look into, okay, what's the most logical way for me to go about doing this? In a way that A, facilitates conversations, and B, introduces people to new ideas that they would not be introduced to before, or at the very least challenges them, and C, how do I keep this going long-term so that
38:49
I can actually maintain my sanity in the process because I don't want to burn out either. You know, like for as much passion I have about this, I'm not trying to do this as like some sort of like self-moderate kind of thing. So podcasts became a very evident answer for me because I was like, okay, A, I talking to people is a little bit of a lost art. People don't talk to each other anymore. And when I say don't talk to each other, what I mean specifically is that people,
39:18
currently anyway, in the online space, it's very for them to talk at somebody. It's one thing to talk at somebody, it's one thing, it's another thing to talk to somebody. Talking to somebody requires different sets of muscles, cognitive, cognitively speaking, to where you actually have to be aware of not only what you're saying, but also what the other person is saying. And up to that point, what I realized is that
39:47
It didn't matter if I kept putting my stuff out on these platforms, whether it's social media or otherwise, no one would actually be talking to me in that kind of format. It's not just... So I understood that and I kept it pushing. So from my vantage point, this is the best decision I've ever made in my entire life, because it has enabled me effectively to build community in a way that...
40:16
truly aspires to the ideals that the likes of the Black Panthers have established decades prior. The idea of knowing your neighbor and being involved and staying tapped in and actually understanding the struggles of your neighbor and how to best address them. That's what occurred to me in the process of like, oh, hey, not only I'm in the intersection of
40:45
I have a real tangible way to go about spreading a message that is relevant and helpful to people en masse, which I guess that explains why at this point in time, 100,000 people and counting are now revolving around what I'm publishing and not what I'm putting out there. I think it's no coincidence. And I've spread that message from day one, to be honest. I've always made sure to remind people time and time again that
41:13
Don't just take what you hear at face value and just agree with it and not along and basically self-masturbate in your head. You actually have to put this stuff into action. So for me, I dig on the whole practice what you preach kind of thing. And it's very interesting for me to, every so often I'll log back onto Instagram and I'll see, I'll post a story or see what's currently being posted elsewhere. And it's very interesting to me that it's been...
41:43
Let's see, about four or five years ish, if you want to count that. It's been that long that I've known some of these people. And to see them just time and time again, go back to that very place that makes them miserable, makes me miserable personally. But if anything makes me furious that. This is how badly we've been swindled, you know? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh.
42:13
There's something to that, like how badly we've been swindled. And also, there's like so many good points in there. And I just have to say, like, first of all, like, it is... I love to hear the kind of your journey from, you know, discovering, taking stock of what you're participating in and really being aware and attuned to like,
42:43
actually this isn't serving me and I mean looking at it, it's not really serving anybody. And finding that kind of place where you can do that what you want to do, which is like have those conversations. And admittedly, I know I heard talking at people that is just like, that's my use case for Instagram.
43:08
really, I mean, I'll find people through Instagram that I do want to talk to, but most of the time I'll just post what I feel like I can't, you know, bother my friends who I've already, you know, talked their ears off about, and you know, we'll have conversations, but sometimes you know me, I can definitely get a little unhinged and publicly.
43:38
to everybody's judgment. And I don't know, that's a judgment that call that I cannot make to say that it's to everybody's, everybody's judgment. But definitely the talking at aspect of it is that's really resonating with me right now because I hear that and I'm like, oh I do that. It's kind of offloading this responsibility of
44:07
responding and I guess really actually even like care for other people as I'm putting this out into the world. And I think, I know hearing your story of like, or I guess also you sharing about like, yeah, like, this is such a just like, it's sad to see people coming back to this place that is
44:37
causing such misery and also just like, I don't, oh, like what, figuring out what feeds that. I mean, there's a lot on what feeds that and why we continue to engage and, oh, I guess just, yeah, just a moment to stop and think. Yeah, these are very complex issues, but I'll tell you what, too.
45:05
To answer two things you've posed here and one fell through number one, going back to what I said earlier in terms of acknowledging things and being willing to say no to things, even if it's the radical thing to do. Well, that may sound, you know, it's a kind of territory of if you don't have something nice to say, don't say that all kind of thing.
45:35
Not just you, by the way, just like the general people in general, right? If you find it easy for you to just go on the internet and talk at people, think about like what is, what it is you're actually doing in terms of muscle atrophy. And in other words, what parts of yourself are you actually restraining from using and learning to maintain and learning to.
46:04
be consistent at over time. And yeah, for me, it's no surprise that people more than ever do each other as a result because all they know how to do is to talk at each other. You see my point? Yeah. I see that and also.
46:24
I...
46:27
I'm a little curious because...
46:32
I don't know, I mean, I'm sure there is an aspect of these platforms that give us the opportunity to talk at each other, but I'm maybe, maybe I'm pulling on some recent personal experiences of talking with a lot of people from a generation above me, and I guess maybe they are, they have been socialized, conditioned to
46:59
they themselves had to sit through the generations above them, telling them exactly what to do and how to think and how to feel. And I guess it's like, I've been talked at by other people who don't participate in this kind of, and I'm wondering, like, how do those, is that, is that,
47:29
Are those just the same behaviors coming from different sources? Are those different behaviors, but I'm just interpreting them the same because it feels the same as I sit and I'm talked at?
47:45
Yeah, you're just curious. And also, I'm like looking at the time and I need to, yeah, just pop off on a bit. But, you know, yeah. So what I can say is that being talked at is a universal feeling. It's something that we all understand and we we know we all hate. And yet we keep participating in it. And one part because.
48:12
These platforms are designed to keep us hooked there. And on the other hand, because there's a social contract, we have to abide by or else. That or else is very much very depending on the person you speak to. But for me, I'll call it a person or a privilege, but I don't have such restrictions. I've never had, to be honest with you.
48:35
in terms of what that means for me long term. But to specifically address what you brought up earlier though in terms of what it is the future of you know these platforms and my future as a person looks like long term is that for as long as the interaction boils down to talking at, I'm not going to engage in that anymore you know like it's it's it's boycotting for me at least.
49:04
If this is the kind of place that's going to promote that behavior more, then me by virtue of being there is giving my consent for that to continue. So why should I do that? Like, this is a rhetorical question, by the way, but you get the point nonetheless, right? Like if I see something that I don't personally agree with and I see it going somewhere that I don't want it to go, then yeah, the least I can do is, you know, to.
49:33
stop dead in my track and you know let people know that hey this is why I'm not doing it anymore and you from your end can make that choice and I think I have a testimony of the people that have been subscribing to my stuff so far to go off of that lets me know that actually I mean I'm onto something and this is not an unpopular opinion to have whatsoever. Yeah.
50:00
So that's basically like what we've covered so far. You know, it's our social contract and the contract that we have with the platforms that we use every day have impacted ourselves in our communities and our ability to maintain some communities. That's like what this entire conference basically boiled down to, which in my perspective, feels like a very helpful way to
50:29
address certain things and a message to quit out there.
50:36
Yeah, definitely. I think I hear that. Yeah, it is. It's it's it feels very meta in a way where.
50:49
I think maybe there also is an element of the way that I... I don't know if it's where this is coming from, if this is just because I live life with that consuming a lot of content that is giving me some sort of expectation that I'm putting on myself. I've really enjoyed having this conversation and I'm also on a separate level, highly aware of...
51:17
Oh, did I say that correctly? Ooh, like I know sometimes words that are in my brain don't come out of my mouth because my brain is moving too fast. And I don't know if, I guess just like, I have to sit with this kind of feeling of discomfort of like, I have had a, I've enjoyed this conversation and also like I...
51:44
A fear of like, I hope this wasn't a waste of your time. Also, like, I also hope like, I don't know, I didn't say anything too stupid. Remember what I just told you about social contracts? Yeah. Yeah. So going off from, from that same kind of framework, you know, like this, if the social contract requires me to stick around, if we got less of it being a waste of my time or not, you can kind of hypocritical it would be of me just talk to you still, right?
52:16
Yeah, I mean, like I think there's...
52:21
You know, there is conversation for conversation, for connection. I think there's some, you know.
52:32
I mean, not power, there's some value. I don't know that everything has to have value, but there's some value in that it's like just being present, I guess, with another person even if it's not for a purpose or it doesn't have. If I may point it out, I think what you're getting at is fulfillment and value because you'll be, again,
53:01
Besides the feeling of being talked at, being universal and people understanding what that feels like and how unpleasant that is, then similarly people know what fulfills them. People know that when they do something, what makes them feel good and what makes them want to do it again. So put your fears at ease right now that this actually has been very fulfilling as far as I'm concerned. And for other people that listen,
53:29
at a later time, once you give your view over this, yeah, I mean, that's gonna be for them to decide, you know? Like their view should in no way affect your fulfillment because that defeats the purpose, right? Like if you're already fulfilled, can someone, it's like saying someone coming in, seeing your cup being full, then, you know, expecting them to somehow dig through that, to that cup and just empty it with like a straw or something. It's like, it doesn't really work like that.
53:57
Like if I'm already fulfilled, like I'm already fulfilled, like no one can take that away from me or from you or from anybody else for that matter. That's always like true fulfillment has no eyes or obligation or expectations set to something else. It's all down to your own personal anchoring of how you feel and what you desire.
54:28
Ooh, so many points in that, like, and it's so interesting that we're having this conversation. Like, I guess maybe the word anchoring is hitting me because recently I've been feeling very, the word that I've been using to talk to people has been untethered. Like, I, you know, which is not a bad or good thing. I just don't feel particularly tied down to.
54:57
feelings, whatever, but also in that I think that there's an element of floating around that...
55:09
for me, like...
55:13
I...
55:16
There is no fulfillment in the words that you've described it as.
55:26
I'm having a little bit of an existential moment thinking like, have I ever felt fulfilled in that? Like, no expect- in that there is no expectation or no, you know, there is only just like this-
55:45
enjoyment of that moment and I guess maybe.
55:50
I don't know, maybe I don't know where to put this. I can't, you know, I'm trying hard. My the wheels are spinning, trying to psychoanalyze myself of like, where does that come from? Have I have ever felt fulfilled like way? But like, is there a moment where I could have felt fulfilled is? And I don't know if that's just like the conditioning in my brain to always be thinking about like, how do I prepare for what's next or what I. Yeah.
56:20
Sorry. My full query to you as a challenge, right? So that same moment that you're having right now, actually, A, it's very normal, and B, I've gone through the exact same motion about a year ago to the dot, where I was like, OK, I know exactly where I've gone wrong. I know exactly why I'm not fulfilled. How do I address this? And what I did that night was that I started to fucking write, like literally. I just got on the computer, and I wrote.
56:48
paragraphs on paragraphs on paragraphs of stuff. So I'm not going to give you a prompt on what to write about. But something in me is my hunch is that what you're going to write about very much will deal with people in the way you interact with people because based on the little that I do know about you, people seems to play a very pivotal role in your life and I would not be surprised because you engage in partaking a lot of social
57:17
contracts that requires you to be around people, whether it's, you know, in your environment of the workplace or environment we're pretending to tico and all that stuff. So my next best guess for me in that scenario would be to write it all down and then come back to it at a later time and read that again to see exactly what might set you. And you'd be very surprised what that opens up for you.
57:45
tips on like, or just like where to start. Like if I, you know, I'm, you know, I've definitely sat down and wrote stuff and it's generally.
57:58
Yeah, it'll start and then the note will stop. And I guess just what do I write? I guess I'm going to clarify because I said write with the assumption that you would understand what I mean. But I'm going to be very specific here and really have to understand that. So for me, writing, it's not writing as in the act of writing, as in pen to paper or keyboard to screen, whatever you want to use.
58:26
It's more so taking these thoughts that I have in my head and making them tangible in some way, shape or form, right? That's what writing boiled down to for me at that specific time of like, okay, I know what I'm feeling, I know how I feel, and I know why I'm feeling that way. I'm not exactly sure where it's coming from, but let's figure it out. So it's kind of like a treasure map where it's like, okay, I know what I'm looking for, I just don't know how to get there. And
58:55
the pressure shouldn't be on how much you write, how much you're putting to down or how quickly you get there. The process should more so focus on what it is that you feel along the way as you unload all that and as you unpack all that, because I kind of hate to break it to you a little bit, but you basically need all right now. Like you've been in the matrix for however long and I kind of...
59:22
came out of nowhere and I yanked you out of it. And I put a few, you know? Yeah. It's really funny because it's just like, over the past year, I don't know how many people have, I'm gonna let you in and let you know that I've never seen The Matrix. I know the basic plot points. And also, I just have not seen The Matrix.
59:52
I know, you know, it's, but I think there is a lot of value of what you just said, because I think a lot of how I interact even, you know, whether or not I'm talking at talking with talking to talking at myself and other people.
01:00:12
I think I have a real issue with committing to words and committing to doing things. I like to let them go free and release them to the universe because then I don't have to have this idea of being beholden to things that are mine and that's in my mind. That's your problem. What is it you're trying to commit to? I know it sounds like a very silly, borderline existential question to ask.
01:00:42
Again, I've gone through the exact same concept. At that same night, I generally sat down and I asked myself, okay, I have all of that stuff in my head to share. And I want to share it in a way that, at least for me, feels fulfilling and not in service of some other person or some other big faceless corporation. What does that look like? That's a very big question that needed to be answered that I answered.
01:01:11
in parts, not fully, but I can tell you a year into it, I'm a lot further along than someone who's already either like two years ahead of me or five years ahead of me or 10 years ahead of me compared to someone who's just, I don't know, just now getting into it, like say a night or a month ago or a week ago, you know? So that's not the pressure at hand here. I cannot emphasize that enough. It's more so...
01:01:41
learning to understand, to find your footing and making sure that as you find that footing, you navigate it in full truth so that you're no longer saying yes to things just because you have to and similarly you're not any more saying no to things because you have to either. It's only coming from a place of hey I'm not doing that because I have the power to say I'm not doing that.
01:02:10
Or I want to do that because I also have the power to say I'm doing that. And like everything else, it all takes time. You know, like it's, it's not, these are not things you meant you're supposed to answer like in one snap of a finger, because if that was the case, trust me, um, society would be a lot further along by now. Oh yeah. So that's my take on everything so far. And I don't know, man, for me, like I said, to be clear.
01:02:39
Yeah, is this supposed to be something that's intended for people to listen to? Yeah, but the intent doesn't negate the fact that I'm fulfilled in the process of discovering or in some instances rediscovering these things that if anything serves as a bit of a reminder in terms of like, hey, you're on the right track. You're doing something that's good, that's helpful, that's useful. Keep it going. So.
01:03:08
I'm hoping those same realizations actually come to you as you tackle the challenge of figuring out, hey, what's the thing I'm not committing to and how do I do that? Yeah. Yeah. It's this is such a interesting kind of moment that we're reconnecting kind of. Because I definitely went into my little hidey hole for like,
01:03:37
a very long while. And I definitely have been examining what that means to me. And
01:03:49
I've been realizing that I don't. I've never sat with myself to even realize what it is that I want, what I need. Because a lot of what has been ingrained in me is like to, or what I've been taught, or what I've been told, are the goalposts. Those aren't my goalposts.
01:04:19
I think, oh, you know, and I'm just getting too old to not know. I'm too old to, I'm too tired. And I need to actually find something that fills me with energy. Yep, that checks out. So I hope to hear from what you've written about.
01:04:47
Whenever you do write it and whenever you do want to share it, um, I'm definitely the first recipient you can think of in terms of dumping, dumping that onto, uh, don't feel like it's going to be one of those like close friends story where it's like, Ooh, someone is getting spicy out of nowhere. Um, just a lot, but it's to point out the absurdity of like, of what we've discussed this entirety of this conversation, right? This idea that like,
01:05:18
This entire time, for lack of a better term, we've been conversating, but we've been mostly doing it in a way that feels one-sided, right? In terms of you dump something on your close friend's story, I happen to see it, I make a comment about it, but that's about it, like nothing more on that. And now I'm challenging you to take that same energy, but put that into the same kind of format that I'm telling you has helped me getting to where I'm at today, you know?
01:05:48
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Uh, I have a class in about eight minutes, so I will have to pop off, but, um, thank you. Um, I'm thinking about what kind of format I want to kind of explore this in and also timeline because like, yeah, I, I am trying to slow down a little bit. Um,
01:06:17
And I want to be kind to myself in this process, I think, is one thing. Um, if it takes you a week, a month, years, trust me, that's not what matters here. What matters is what you come down to in terms of knowing yourself better. Um, I think that's like what's really gonna be the most rewarding thing. And then when all is said and done. Um, I do hope to hear about it though.
01:06:46
when it does happen. Yeah. So I'll keep my ears to the ground. And you will be the first. I will just send it to you. I will not post. I promise. I cross my heart, Scott's honor. You will not find it on my close friends' story. Well, even if it did, to be honest, I would likely not see it because these days, I don't have any.
01:07:17
So that's why I hope you have a great time at class. And if you have like some last things you'd like to share in terms of like, um, how people can best support you at this time, uh, definitely do that. Because that's also a thing I do here in terms of, I don't know, like if you have like a particular mutual aid thing, you're trying to like give a bit of a signal booster so people know what to do and support them, what have you, that would be a good time to do that. Oh gosh. Um, can I?
01:07:44
Can I do this asynchronously and send it to you? Brain is not working. And I can just add it later in post-outworks. Amazing, thank you so much. Dope man, great catching up, great hearing about all this stuff. Gives me actually a lot more perspective about you and what you're doing, believe it or not. Yeah, wow.
01:08:14
Cool, thank you. Yeah. Sure, I'm in.
01:08:20
Have a good evening. I'll try to. Bye.
[Whiz Pill Podcast 54] Technology And Its Impact On Our Communication Patterns