[Whiz Pill Podcast 52] Paloma McClain: A Solo Artist Perspective On Art & Culture

Transcript

00:00

Sounds good. Neat. Okay. So I'm just going to give a brief intro about myself once again, because I feel like context wise, it's important for this specific cover. I am a podcast host and writer. I go by the name Wiz, W H I Z, and I predominantly focus on the intersection of arts, culture and tech. And the reason why I do this is because there's a lot happening in the, in these industries, specifically the world of tech and the world of technology.

00:29

parts and I figured it would be useful to compile resources for my own benefit initially to figure out, okay, how do I make sense of this changing landscape? And then now, fast forward a year later, I've reached a listenership of almost 100,000 people with my podcast along with on my hosting platform called Substack. And yeah, my publication is called Solving Complexities, One Way Spill a Day. That's kind of like...

00:58

It's like a play on word. It's like a pun. It's like, you know, whiz pill. It's kind of like taking the red pill, but taking the whiz pill instead. You know, the idea here is to go down a rabbit hole, learn something along the way ideally and ghost your brains brilliance. That's like what I'm really about. At least under this moniker. I know that part of this conversation right now that I told you about my background and all that stuff, but yeah, I'm fairly diverse outside of this, but

01:27

For this one specifically, though, I've definitely focused on covering things I find either interesting or worth learning something about and kind of go from there. And I would be neat to be one such individuals. So tell me about yourself, you know, who you are, why don't you go by both, you know, actual name-wise or online-wise and what you do and we can go from there. All right. My name is Paloma McClain. I live in Houston.

01:56

I am a digital illustrator. I've always been a very artistic person from childhood. Right now I am working in games and I am trying to get my slid in the door and possibly like AAA games. Right now I'm working for an indie studio called Red Essence and we're working on our first ship, which we should be announcing pretty soon. So super excited about that.

02:25

But outside of work, I really gravitate towards whimsical, imaginative, storytelling, narrative-driven illustration. I, at first, thought I was a portrait artist. I started doing portrait commissions probably around 2016, 2017. But after a couple years of doing that, I just realized that I didn't want to be...

02:52

I didn't want to be known as a portrait artist. I wanted to tell more stories. So now I am trying to hone my skills to better, to better my imaginative, sorry, my skills in drawing from imagination because I was so used to drawing from photo reference. I was so used to copying what I see. And it's a lot more challenging to copy from, or not copy, but draw from imagination. So of the bat,

03:20

What you're describing to me in terms of, you know, how you do art and why you do art, it sounds like it's labor. Labor intensive, I would even dare to say. I'm very conscious as far as required to generate ideas, you know, like what's that process like for you specifically? You know, like how do you build from idea, show to then, oh, I have something in mind, let me execute.

03:50

well never see the light of day. It just you start from a very basic idea and you have to make iterations from that. So you kind of stray a bit further and further from like the stereotypical idea of that thing. And that can be very challenging making iterations of ideas, especially like very, very common ideas. Like, I don't know, you can think of like...

04:17

what pops in your head when you think of a sword or a shield or even something like, I don't know, a cabin, something you would see in a fantasy video game. You have to make it interesting. The most basic thing's interesting. But yeah, I would say it's labor intensive. But I think being creative is the muscle you can exercise and it just takes repetition and practice to get a bit more efficient at it. And I feel like that's sort of the stage I'm at. So...

04:47

That muscle is still pretty weak, I would say right now. So I'm in the phase where I am like working out that creative muscle to better illustrate my ideas. You know, speaking of like creative muscle, hosting these very podcasts works me out in a very different way. No story short, for me at least, what makes the podcast boring is just people ranting about nonsense. And when I say nonsense, I specifically mean

05:17

It's one thing to sell me on a premise, but if you don't deliver on that premise, then I get really pissed off because it's like, okay. You have, say for example, I have someone who their bio reads, Hey, I built my own company from scratch and it's now a billion dollar company. So from my perspective, if I'm going to listen to a podcast like that, I'll think to myself, okay, I'm going to hope that at the very least that person gets asked about.

05:46

the early stages of how they did it. If possible, what about their routine like they have that makes them as good as they are at what they do today, or what kind of person they hang around. That kind of questions, that's like what lingers in my head in terms of such a premise. And if I feel like a good host, regardless if it's like a podcast or like an interview setting, or even casual conversations, I would argue like...

06:14

What makes good conversation material in my opinion is not so much people that ask good questions, but people that understand what those questions might lead to in the context of the convo itself, but also for other people, if there's several people involved, which can be either a public convo, like say like an other dinner table, or like a convo like this where it's like intended to be heard by hundreds of thousands of people, that kind of thing.

06:43

I try not to do that if possible. Granted, there are podcasts that are more in the entertainment style style of thing. I kind of compare them to like essentially stand up comedy, but again, it's still a different kind of creative muscle to be able to riff like in real time and come up with jokes and you know, crack people up like that. That's a skill I personally don't have. So at least I haven't trained on as much.

07:08

What I can do though is really pay attention to what's going on as far as the flow of the convo goes and essentially riff back and forth with people. And I think me being able to riff on different topics also helps Loki. And that's part of the muscle lab exercise over time. It's really doing research for me at least means not just look at an article one time and then I'm kind of done with it. I keep a consistent eye out for subsequent.

07:37

updates on said article or said people that are the article covered or in the context of social media I'll follow someone and I would actually pay attention to what they post over time. It's not like a one and done kind of thing where it's like well I don't know what you're up to these days and I'm not gonna bother figuring that out kind of thing so it's a very similar thing I do in real time when it comes to podcasting. I'm very curious to know some of your thoughts in terms of the idea of staying consistent over time.

08:06

with your skillset as a visual artist, you know, like, is that something that you would consider to be fairly difficult? Like, is that something that like, the more you do it, the more there's pressure for you to not stop? So me personally, I would say consistency is important, but I know for me, I have not been consistent, particularly with artwork in the past few years, because I have been working two jobs since 2022.

08:35

And that takes a lot of time and energy out of you. I just did not have anything left in me to improve my personal artwork or even make anything for fun because making artwork felt like work. And the last thing I wanted to do was make art and that really sucks. So I was just, I've been really hoping for a time where I could just have one job and after that job is done for the day, I can adopt a thing about work.

09:04

and I can finally get excited about my own ideas again. And I think being consistent is a lot easier when you have something to be excited about, like when you come home for work each day. And I think it's really important to have something to look forward to because then being consistent is gonna be super difficult if you're just trying to make something for the sake of just pleasing.

09:33

others on social media and it's not really for yourself type of thing. The idea of consistency that for me resonates to most is when you stay authentic to your voice. I can kind of describe. I feel like for me what consistency comes down to is being able to define the parameters through which you want to do something and at the very least keep up that repetition to a degree where if you disappear for say more than

10:02

a week in a row, then that's when stuff won't really affect you that much because you've built up such a catalog already that you can afford to just chill out. A quote I read that one time, essentially it says that a man is only as good as his systems and system in terms of the pipeline through which you deliver, what you set out to deliver. So for me, for example, with the podcasting thing, a lot of what I do is very much system based, right?

10:30

Me being on Discord right now with you is a system kind of thing. Typically, I actually record my podcast using Twitter Spaces. That's a feature I've been using a bit, or not a bit actually. I use it quite a ton. And a lot of, a lot of the trending topics that pertain to my arena tend to happen on Twitter Spaces. So I've been using it as like that tool in part of my system, but also getting into the more Discord side of things. I have my own Discord server because A, it's a good way to like

10:59

get to know people off the record when they do get into my server but be it's also a need to be able to just repurpose things for later if I feel like it kind of like what I'm doing right now so that plays into the system of you know what I've set up so that everything plays seamlessly with each other so that I have to effectively do less work or at least like less labor, active intense labor that requires me to strain myself because

11:26

I can if I want to, but ideally I try not to. I'm lazy like that. And lazy as in I come up with creative solutions to not really do shit I don't want to do. Because let me tell you, audio editing is not fun. I'll be the first to say it. I don't know if there's like a guru out there that's gonna tell me, actually audio editing is really fun, you know? Just learn to love it. It's like maybe for you, but not for me. So part of what I do systems wise actually is the very way I speak right now. Like...

11:55

I know how to do things so that there's not like a lot of like pillar stuff, if you will, that's in there so that I don't need to go back and post later and you know, figure out hey like where's the dead air? What do I need to remove? And actually these days there's tools that exist that make it easier on my end, but even then you can only get by on so much. So it makes it easier overall to just like set up certain guidelines of like, hey, we do this this way. I mean, not only this way, but

12:25

stay relatively flexible. And then from moving forward, you can just like, try to adapt the vision over time and execute as much as you can. And more importantly, iterate, you know? I feel like I learn more on iteration than I learned on consistency. Cause consistency kind of implies that it's repetitive and you have to do the exact same thing every time. Whereas iteration means, or implies rather, it's repetitive, sure, but it's improvement over time as well. So.

12:53

That's where for me, that stuff becomes critical. It's like, if I stop the momentum at any point, there's no iteration, therefore no progress, therefore no consistency, at least from my vantage point. How do you feel about that? You're asking me about consistency versus? Iteration. Yeah, I mean, I can definitely see where you're coming from when you say consistency is kind of repetitive. I would definitely say iteration. I guess being consistent.

13:21

with making iterations would be ideal. I guess when I try to put it in the context of like an artist, I would say to not make it feel like work, you want to have a system in place where you want to do what you want to do most of the time. So for artists, I would say like draw the subject matter that you have the most fun doing and do that consistently. Maybe, I don't know, you can make iterations on that, like by telling a story, something

13:51

that relates to something special in your life or something that might be relatable to yourself and maybe the people that follow you. Depending on your profession or who you are, and there's different ways you can interpret it, but sort of like the filter that I use. So here's a big question for you. If you were to describe creativity in three words, Alice, That's a hard question.

14:20

Sometimes I don't know if I can do it on the spot. You don't need to do it on, well, maybe not that long. Cause if people were, they will be. Yeah. What happened? I'm not really good with these kinds of questions. Here's a framework. Start with the first word that comes to mind. How about that? When you think of creativity. Yeah. Like what's the first word that comes to your mind? Like literally just to blurt out whatever it is. It doesn't have to make any sense. Trust me. I'm going somewhere with this.

14:49

I mean, I really just feel like it would be like iterations just kind of like, because the word that we've been using already. All right. So from there now, think of like another word that relates to that same word, but sounds different or is different. Here's a little hint. Uh, the point of this little mental exercise, it's not so much to show you my process. It's also a way for you to hopefully learn about yours because there is different mind states, right?

15:19

I don't know if there's like any research on this, but there's introspective mind states and the opposites like sometimes people are focused inwards, on other times people are focused outwards and most people are very much outwards. It takes some iterations to be able to figure out, hey, what's going on in? So for me, if I do this whole creativity exercise, initially I'm thinking of, okay, I truly do agree that iteration plays a role into it, but it wouldn't be the first one for me to

15:48

come to mind, it would actually be an imagination, right? So creativity for me is imagination, iterated, actually that's like how I feel about that one. So that's my three words. I see. Yeah, no, I think it's accurate. I'm just horrible at these type of questions. Yeah. One of the quotes that I really like is from Rick Rubin. Do you know who that is by chance? Rick Rubin would be a music producer.

16:15

A lot of what he's known for is essentially he's shaped, I don't know how much of a music fan you are, but chances are an artist that you're fed up, they've worked with. Could you name a few? Just curious, now that we're on the topic. Music artists. Gosh, I could just go through my Spotify really quick. That works. Just like people that like you go listen to on a regular basis, not like a woman done kind of thing. Gosh, okay. It's just cause I'm bad at remembering things.

16:44

remembering things on the spot, looking through my playlist right now. Oh, so you have actually a playlist that you built up for yourself? Oh, on Spotify, definitely. How big is your playlist? How many songs do you have in there? I know it's over 299. Okay, cool. I have you beat by at least like 5,000. No biggie. Oh my gosh. That's crazy. Change moment. I would, I would be a bit of a fraud if I'm literally covering the other section of Arts, Court and Tech and

17:13

My music library is not matching any of that, you know what I'm saying? Mm-hmm. Like I'm definitely the type of person, I like save a lot of songs from a lot of different artists in the same sort of genre. Have you heard of Topaz Jones? I don't know if you know what, if she can copy and paste the link in my Discord DMs right now, that'll be dope so I can actually go take a look at it real quick. Like the, like the specific song? Or? Of the song in the playlist actually, if you don't mind.

17:43

Oh, geez. Okay. Check it. That's probably not the best for recording a podcast. No, don't worry. Uh, these are things that you'd be very surprised. I got so good at dealing with that it's basically second nature to me. So don't feel like you have to keep up per se. I know how to manage. Yeah. That's why I was part of why I was nervous on talking on a podcast is like.

18:09

I'm not, I'm better at communicating or articulating my thoughts through writing, but like through talking, I am not the greatest. I think you need to push out. I'll try. Like for me, I don't know, I don't feel like you're stuck at all. I think what's going on is that your internal perception is too strong. So I guess you're tripping over yourself a little bit because like before we even started doing this right now.

18:39

We talked for at least like 40 minutes prior to that. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, I guess so. So clearly you can talk. Well, I'm glad. I just kind of think about it from the perspective of people listening to this. Like, damn, this girl doesn't know what she's talking about. If they come for you, I'll come for them. That's like a fair trade. I always loved funk or songs that have a really upbeat. Funk as in F-U-N-K, right? Yes, yes. Construe. Oh.

19:08

Too Fake by Two Pants. That's one of my favorite songs. I know a band, one of my friends actually, they started there on bands and they called it Tommy Ink. So I can't quite tell why they picked that name, but I can sort of relate to the whole theme of like a Tommy Ink. Like playlists is everywhere. It's an iteration, how about that? It's a callback to what we were talking about earlier in terms of like being consistent in one way.

19:35

I don't know, even like in the context of like a playlist, like I don't really feel the pressure of needing it to be consistent in the sense of like, if I'm creating it for public consumption it's going to be a different story, but if I'm doing so for the sake of my own personal enjoyment, I'll have dubstep stuff right next to like funk stuff, right next to like jazz stuff, I don't care, that's iteration.

19:59

It's an iteration of my taste over time as I find stuff out of hell that I like. I feel like people are people. They will not be the same person that they were yesterday. Would you agree? Yeah, that's a really interesting way of looking at it. Yeah, I see why you dig that stuff. And he came out five years ago, too, when he has a million point seven views on YouTube. Surprisingly, though, he only has 26,000 subscribers.

20:25

So it's like, it's just 4,000 shy of the other friend I told you about that I helped through their own YouTube channel, which now that we're on the topic, I'm actually gonna send you a link real quick to their videos. I think you're like, you can save it for later. I don't know if you're much of a video essay kind of person, but yeah, they do video essays quite a bit and a lot of what they do is they talk about black culture, music culture, artistry and creativity and stuff like that. I think you'll dig it.

20:54

And then, you know what's funny? Speaking of consistency, that specific video I'm about to send you, there's a part where J. Cole talks about consistency for himself, which by the way, the video it's about when essentially in that video, he makes the case that the reason why that as successful as he is today as an artist is because he had that pit-bottle switch where it's like, you know what? I'm not surely gonna get really clear on like my intentions as an artist. And.

21:23

really make sure that like what I'm doing, I'm not just sticking around. You know what I'm saying? So also, I don't want to assume, but like, you know, you know who J. Cole is? Yeah. Neat. Do you, what's your memory in terms of like discovering that artist in particular? I can't really pinpoint exactly like when I discovered that artist, but I feel like he's just always been there. I mean, I always discover artists just through like sites like Spotify and stuff, but I feel like I'm

21:53

been aware of J. Cole for like years, years and years. I don't really know when he became big, but I'm pretty sure he just started from hearing a song on the radio. That's neat. And also you mentioned that, you know, you're 28. 28. Yeah, 28. So I feel like taste-making wise, you definitely have grown up in a time of listening to music differently, you know, like what was that time like for you in terms of like life back then?

22:23

What do you remember that stood out to you in terms of, you know, that life pre-smartphones, pre-internet, pre-everything? No, no, no, no. That's a good question. I mean, I guess there is a lot more of living in the moment. Gosh, I think the smartphone came out when I was around like seventh grade. So it wasn't that long. I don't know. I do look back on those times fondly for sure. I mean, I had a completely different life. I had a childhood best friend.

22:53

We just grew apart over the years. I don't know, but music has always been a big part of my life and it's a big reason I got into dancing too. Oh neat, what kind of dancing? I mean, they call it like, it's like hip hop inspired choreography. I mean, there's like different ways you can get into the, Houston has a really diverse dance scene. You have the underground scene with cyphers and battles and stuff. And then you have the choreography side.

23:22

where you can sign up for a class and you want a routine. And that's how I got into it. Cause I wasn't even aware that the underground scene was a thing, like the freestyle scene. I learned that later. So yeah, I got into just taking classes. I was 14 years old and I absolutely loved it. And I stuck, I think that was like 2009 when I took my first class and I stuck with it till 2017. And it was always like hip hop style.

23:52

or urban. I don't really know the correct terminology for it because I didn't learn foundations as you should like locking, popping, or housing. I didn't even know this existed until years later, but I still really enjoyed it for what it was. So it turns out you've been consistent this whole time. You just never told me about it. I mean, it's been years since I took class, but I don't know. I guess I could say that

24:21

I've just always loved arts in different forms. I love watching dancers. I loved actually taking the classes. I think a part of you will always be a part of me, even though I'm not an active dancer right now. But I just appreciate that art form so much, especially when you mix it in with videography. Before I jump into the next thing I wanted to bring up to you, I wanna specifically hone in on what you said about loving. So animation.

24:51

as a skill set that is, right? We can agree it's fairly difficult to pull off and execute, whether it's 2D or 3D, right? So similarly, animation that's done in, to lack of a better term, closely mirrors reality, tends to be more, and like people say audio subjective, so I'm not gonna like do this or debate all over again, but it seems to me that some of the best films ever made

25:20

whether 3D or 2D, follow principles of motion that really mirrors reality in some way, shape, or form. I think, I'm thinking specifically of the Ghibli movies, it's like Ayao Miyazaki, he's just the Japanese director, actually. Most famously he's known for Inosuka and, you know, all these crazy ass movies that took a long time to make, probably, I'm pretty sure, all of his whole anime, and he was like very adamant about, you know.

25:50

the tradition of animation alive and stuff like that. And also, well, pretty well known for his quote of, you know, anime was a mistake. Oh. I guess it's a bit of an ironic quote, though. I mean, jokes aside, because like, I guess what he does would be considered anime as in, you know, Japanese anime cartoons, but he's in a different movie. But the point I'm getting at though, animation-wise, like, he's definitely a case study of like what...

26:18

good motion looks like, cause these people took the time to study what the stuff should look like. Also another example would be Ghost in the Shell, the animated movie that came out in the late 90s. There's a lot of great execution in terms of not just motion, but even scenes where people are shooting bullets and the bullet impacts into a people or objects. It's really realistic, it's almost like simulation to a certain degree. Skill sets, do you feel drawn so much to dance and-

26:45

other such form of expression you want to observe and take inspiration from your own artistry and you know, and then complement it. Say my interest in dance never really had to do with my artwork. It was always just about how it made me feel. You feel really awesome and accomplished when I could actually get down a routine and perform it well.

27:13

Because I have pretty bad performance anxieties. Anytime I could overcome that was a win. I had a lot of internal struggles as a dancer and I always had to confront those weaknesses. I could point out the parallels between art and dance to myself later on, like way later. I was, well, there's so many similarities between the two. Like with dance.

27:40

Some of the terminology they use is similar. For example, there are textures in dance, just like there's textures in art. There's so many other things that I can't think of right now, but I was like, wow, like without even thinking about it, some of the things that you can pick up and learn from dancing for a while, you can actually apply in your artwork and different creative mediums. And it's like kind of wild to me cause they're so different, you know, cause dance is obviously very physical and visual art is.

28:10

more mental. It's not like a physical thing so much. Speaking of physical, a sensual post from Kim Jong-il. I want to hear some of your thoughts about that, both from like an execution standpoint, but also that element you just spoke of in terms of how physical artistry is. He's like considered such a master in the industry. And it basically like basically what I know about him, I don't know that much about him, but what I do know is

28:38

that he was just drawing all the time and he just got to this extreme like level where he could he could just literally put pen to paper what's in his mind like he had so much practice that he could draw anything in any perspective and that's so hard to do gosh like I don't know I think about artists like him and it would just I

29:03

I, it would be cool if I could take a class from him, but I know it would take so much mileage to get to where he is, right? Like where he was, man, he's just a beast. It's insane. My question to you, the most specifically has to do with the physicality of what he does. Cause I've seen him, a lot of what he does, it's half performance, but also meditation. There's definitely a way for him to.

29:31

both physically and mentally, because I've seen him do pieces that are big murals, like the guy just going over a mural that's like a hundred feet, all 30 feet wide, that kind of thing. Like, what's your thought on the physicality of that, as you mirrored with the physicality of dance? I don't know if there's too many parallels I can draw between that and dance, because maybe you would have more to say if I...

30:00

actually experience what it's like to draw huge.

30:06

I don't think I've ever drawn anything big, to be honest. In terms of like sizing and canva, what coaches me in that department is, you know, I'm a foreigner, so you guys have a weird way of measuring things. Y'all do feet and inches. I don't know what the obsession is. But fetish, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's kind of weird. No judging.

30:33

Jokes aside though, I know meters and millimeters and nanometers and centimeters, not this whole feet finish nonsense. So in terms of size-wise, like canvas, how does that work? How do you go about scoping out what's a good size appropriate for a piece you want to execute? And as far as size goes, how small can you get and how big can you get for canvases?

31:02

I mean, are we talking like digital or traditional? Let's do digital first and then traditional later. Yeah. I mean, the size always, it just depends on what I'm using it for. Like if it's for a commission, for example, like usually the client would want to print it out to a pretty like average. I think the size that I use was around like 11 by 17 inches. Or.

31:29

or 14, gosh, I can't remember, but it was like a standard portrait size, very average. But when it comes to anything else, like that is designed for web, I mean, that's like more for pixels. So it would be like significantly smaller depending if it's whatever it's for, like for a banner or just really depends.

31:58

traditional, like size wise, like how much small can one get and how big can one get? Oh geez, I mean I've seen some pretty, I can't really like sped out numbers because I just don't know how big they can get but I've seen people work on huge huge canvases that could cover like a whole like floor of a room and canvas is as small as like smaller of a palm in your hand. People can get really really precise with it, it's pretty crazy.

32:28

I mean, I've never worked on anything that big or that small. I've always stayed with pretty average sizes, but I don't know, people can kind of lean into a niche when it comes to those things. Super super small art or just really really big canvases. Yeah, that makes sense. You know, for me, like the physicality of what King Jo-Gi does from my vantage point, as someone who does parkour, I can tell you it's like, it's being physical and

32:57

assessing space, that's like a skill that people don't think about that's really important that falls into play when you're doing I don't know how much about the sport that you know, but moving to new, you like to look at people dancing, I like to look at people doing our core and seeing how they move because I don't want to go speak, I can sort of like see and appreciate the mechanics of like, okay, like, here's what they're doing to do power, you know, power moves, I'm not sure they

33:26

what techniques are they using to like minimize damage, that type of thing. And let me tell you man, parkour specifically as Kale said, really opens up a whole different arena for you once you get into it seriously, because you realize that, oh, a fall that could have been like lethal at like 20 feet actually turns out you can just like walk it off just fine if you're just, you know, doing good. Nuts. Yeah. Parkour has been always been really interesting to watch, but

33:56

Speaking of parkour, have you ever heard of tricking? Same principle at play, just different. Yeah, like when I watch people do things like that, I'm like, man, like the world is their playground. Like I could never imagine like doing a back flip and these people are doing like corks and so many different, so many spins, so many flips. I just, it's impressive, gosh. Here's a hard question for you. Would that be considered art from your perspective?

34:25

I don't see why it wouldn't. I mean, especially if you make it like choreography, for example, but even like freestyle movement is art, just like freestyle dancing. That's gonna open up an interesting panel room. But before we get into that, like rabbit hop back to the thing I wanted to reference to you earlier. In terms of consistency, J. Cole starts on it. This is an excerpt from this video I told you about that took their channels to nearly 30k. In this video, he talks about J. Cole, a bit of a nomad, so...

34:55

That'll be the second segment at time stamp 905, which is a half an hour long video for context. Is he, he started to get basic. Since the right away. Pacing use it. And I was kind of chilling, like as if that was good enough to get me to where I needed to go. And I had a realization once I think I'm in a party, I'm drunk and I'm high. So I had to leave the party and go to the backyard.

35:25

It's a license on me. They get it. All my college friends, like, they don't move you to a crap shit. These niggas walk in the backyard. Oh, it started to an intervention. These niggas was like, hey, bro, what you doing? You say you want to do this music shit, but like all you doing is really just like hanging out, fucking shit. I just went when it was talking. I swear to God, sobered up quickly. It was almost like I was on the stage. You get literally after that, thought about basketball. Why ain't we getting basketball? I mean, I love to play.

35:55

And at this point, I'm 21 years old, you know, I mean, 22. I'm like, you know, why you didn't make it as well? Because you were fucking working. You thought you'd be outside, shivering in the fucking ball or doing something where really niggas is in the gym with trainers, like putting their work, shooting the thousand shots a day. And your dumb ass over there thinking you doing something mimic Iverson. So I was like, yo, do you really want to look back in 20 years from now with this music shit and be like, the reason you didn't make it in music, because you ain't put in the work. And that was the J Cole video.

36:24

Or what video was that? That was the video essay I just sent to you in your Discord. J. Cole the Inevitable Fall Off? Yep, that's the one. You can bookmark it and watch it. Watch? I'll still like, watch this in full sometime soon. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll link it to the bookmark it, you know, like it's a good video. I mean, shameless plug on behalf of the creator I respect personally, but like, he may still pass shit. Gosh. J. Cole? Ehh, I don't blame you.

36:52

J. Cole is not exactly very public about his life. I mean, that's understandable. Fame does things to you. Yeah, I was about to say, like, sometimes I, like, imagine what it's like to be a celebrity, and I'm thankful that I'm not a celebrity. Yeah, that's like another kind of worm that we can definitely pin and rub it all into later. But yeah, like, thoughts on what J. Cole just said, though? Mm-hmm.

37:20

So I think the part that stood out to me was at the very end, people not working hard enough, they wanna be basically doing what he's doing. When I, I guess, tried to look at it at a lens through my own life, I always think I could have worked harder in a lot of areas of my life, in art and dance as well. I think I'd have to listen to it again because it was a sound bite that stuck in my head.

37:49

I don't remember a lot, like much else. No, that's cool, man. It's also establishing context, too, in terms of you being a listener of J. Cole. Hearing his own thoughts about the very music that he puts out certainly should impact how you feel about it, I think. In the sense of, now that you know that the reason why he's as famous as he is today with his music is because he took a decision to take it seriously.

38:18

It was a craft for them. So he didn't take the craft seriously. They would be, you know, I'm a J. Cole fan. It would just be some guy somewhere, you know? Yeah, sure, sure. Gosh. It's something that's hammered into our heads, like I guess with anything you wanna be successful in. And you have to find success before you get into it. Like what's success to you?

38:44

That's a good question. Honestly, like I really just connect success with stability. That's it's not like, I don't really see it as a really huge thing. I guess it's different for everybody, but like, not having to worry about making ends meet, I would say is pretty successful. One of the things that's turned out to me to be honest, especially in the context of the creative industry, it's people who, for lack of a better term, they want to participate, right?

39:12

And then there are people who want to perform. I'm curious to know from your vintage point, what difference do you think it takes in terms of time investment to be a participant versus being a performer, especially in the art arena, as in visual art that is, the kind of art that you do. You mean like the amount of effort that it takes to succeed in those things? Yeah, like what's the difference, being a participant versus being a performer? Because when a performer sort of implying,

39:39

Participating is just like, hey, I'll just do this, you know, and dabble it. I mean, if I can, that kind of stuff. I see. It's like people who dabble in it, they don't really dig deep into improving at that thing. They don't spend those hours like figuring out what makes something good and then what makes something great. And I feel like with myself, I am always asking myself like, what can I do to push this to the next level?

40:09

I guess a participant would kind of be just okay with being okay. It's just like a drive to want to be really excellent at something. Like what Kim Jong-il was basically? Yeah, I mean it seemed like on a whole other level for him because it's like drawing was breathing for him. I can't really say that I was even that committed. He was on his own level. I mean I think most artists would agree.

40:38

Because for me, as much as I agree, working hard is necessary to succeed. I'm also a big advocate of balance. Like don't overwork yourself. Like don't make yourself lose sleep. Take care of yourself and that will better your craft. I'm not really in the hustle train as much as I am the balance train. This actually brings up a very interesting line of thought for me because

41:08

is very much a performance. As I told you before, I've published 200 hours of this to date to be able to perform at that level. Even for someone as minor as I am, in terms of scale, not exactly... which is where the whole system aspect comes from. I'll be very clear in terms of intention and the outcome and I'll get there as efficiently as possible. The performance element comes into play I earned maybe today and I will not edit and chill.

41:36

Maybe the next day I'll just out track this all in one go before I do. Today, technically, this is my third session. And one of them was three hours and 40 minutes long, I counted. Wow. The idea of art versus skill. Well, just before I get into my explanation, do you think it takes skill to be a good artist or can you just be a good artist without skill? And what I mean by that specifically is, you know,

42:04

Is this idea of like you have to go to school to study, to do a bunch of things, and then you'll be recognized as like an artist proper because you've put in those hours, you put in those skills to learn the theory of it, right? Can you just be a theory? Yeah, I guess I'm definitely more partial with saying that like learning the fundamentals of art definitely counts for something like...

42:33

I don't know, that's kind of an interesting question because I guess what makes art good is like subjective of course. But like, I feel like what makes art good for me personally is like emotional impact. It gets me thinking, it communicates a message well. And I feel like to communicate a message well, you have to understand art fundamentals.

43:00

Cause then you learn like how important design is. You learn how to control where the viewer look in your artwork. I feel like you have a harder an impact if you don't learn those things. So it would be pretty important to take the time to learn those things to be considered good. So, okay. That opens up a very interesting because.

43:27

Since you brought up dance, specifically the world of like hip hop dancing, tangential to the world of dance is the world of graffiti. Graffiti is a culture that I'm aware of that basically said fuck the world, we'll do our own thing, you know? And it's kind of funny, you know, it's kind of this cool aesthetic to just on to make stuff look more of, you know what I'm talking about, right? Yeah. But originally though, this was a...

43:56

responds to the times. Hip-hop culture specifically, that I'm around anyway, because I'm glossing over a lot of things here, but hip-hop culture has a very strong relationship with graffiti culture simply because that was the tool for the average man to, you know, yes, I work it out for me in this city, here's how I feel about it, and here's that for you to look at. So there's the art where you're supposed to look at it.

44:23

for its own merit and then there's the art that makes you look at it because it speaks to your message of what the people living there are dealing with in terms of the graffiti that is. Most graffiti pieces, at least modern ones, it's about like a statement of like a show force. It's like, hey, I climbed this building and put up a tag there or I put like a big piece overnight on an entire subway cart, that kind of thing. But

44:49

Early day graffiti stuff, it was more about letting people know, like, that's my block, don't come over here, or saying something pretty vocal about something relatively political. Graffiti in a lot of ways can be inherently political, and actually, Banksy, I'm sure you know about them, right? So I feel like sometimes someone like that, although he's a more cunt of cunt example of what this is, the principle is the same though. This is not someone you would consider to be skilled.

45:18

by that same metric that you just put earlier. And similarly, the people that do graffiti would not fit that bill too, because clearly we can both agree that what they do is art, but is it skillful art in the sense of like, they have to go to school for it? I mean, I don't actually don't think going to school for art is that necessary either, there's other resources, but I do see where you're coming from. But I don't know, I mean, when I look at Banksy's stuff,

45:47

Like the design is very intentional. I wouldn't say it's not skilled. Thanks. He, whenever he does come on my podcast, I'll be sure to let them know the praise that you said his way. I think I'm joking. I'm going to get his ass eventually. He can only art for so long. But yeah, like, so this going from that little side rabbit hole into then the idea of, you know, art in terms of.

46:15

what is art to begin with. So, and for reference, I actually sent a few links your way of like video interviews that Kim Jong-il was featured on. I think you'll like those. But otherwise, I really think that something that you've said earlier in terms of, you know, the nature of art as far as related to, you know, physical expression, like tricking and the art of motion. So you feel like...

46:43

there can be a debate in that department. So now the debate of like, what is art? Definitely has evolved quite a bit, especially over the last year or so. And you've been a fairly involved member in that discourse that I can tell. So here's a big question for you. What is art? Making sure to like that same mental exercise of defining what art is and three sentences or less. I'm not gonna do the three word thing because I feel like that's...

47:13

too quiet for art. Yeah. I mean, art in the most simplest terms, I guess I would say is like putting, let's just expressing yourself, you know, like through your own body, your own hands. Yeah. I guess that would be the shortest way I can explain it. For me, I think I would consider art to be

47:39

Also expression, granted I would not use expression first, I would say outlet of expression by using tools. So a hand is a tool, can you agree? Oh yes, yes, for sure. And a body is a tool because that's what it is to express that art form, right? A wall is a tool that the graffiti artist uses to put their stuff on, you know?

48:09

What about a computer? Is a computer a tool in the context of artistry? Yes, I mean, I would be more specific and say like a stylus that you would use on a computer screen. But in the simplest terms, I could agree. So computer software specifically, would that also count as like a tool? Think like Adobe Photoshop or the other one. I forgot what these things are called. These things, there's so many of them, but you get the point though. I mean, I see digital.

48:39

work as a medium. Do you, the music that you listen to, do you ever think about how it's made? Just curious? Think about how what? How it's made. I guess so. If you were to take your best guess as far as like how the music that you listen to from that playlist that you sent me earlier actually, like what do you think people were using to make these songs and then to be able to put it out and share it with the world and stuff like that? I mean, I'd assume most of it is like

49:09

like on the computer making sound. I mean, I'm sure there's a mix of making sounds digitally and incorporating, I guess, I don't really know to be honest. I don't know a lot about audio design or how music is made, but I would assume a lot of it is digital. Yeah. So similarly, the same way in visual art, the computer is a tool. And in music, the computer is also a tool. Most famously, Skrillex is like one of the most

49:38

Permanent example of what that looks like. I'm sure you know who that is, right? Yeah, for sure. Would you believe me if I told you that people, there was a time people would call what he does not art? That'd be wrong. It's a wild guess as to why people would say that. Probably because it was a lot of his music was digitally made. Okay. I'm assuming. What else would make people go, oh, this guy, he's not making real music. He's not a real artist. That's not a-

50:07

I'd probably have a better answer if I knew more about how he made his music, but I'm not really sure. What do you know SquillX for? I'm curious, since we're on the topic specifically. Probably from his biggest hits, from so long ago. He became mainstream for Dubstep, like when Dubstep was really hot. So, would you consider Dubstep art? I don't see why not. Some people don't. What would you have to say to these people? I'd ask them why.

50:36

I'd ask them why they think so. That's actually a good question. Let's go down that rabbit hole briefly. So yeah, why would dubstep not be hard? You know, if you were to put yourself in the shoes of someone who thinks that dubstep is not hard, why do you think they would come to that conclusion? I mean, like, the only thing I can think of is they don't think anything created on a computer is art. Why not? I think it's just like the school of thought that, like, traditional is king.

51:06

I don't really see why that would be true. Yeah, and also something about techniques being used and employed in the music industry, specifically to be clear, there's a lot of interesting debates regarding sample usage, where, especially in the early days of hip-hop, it's fairly well known for how sample-heavy it is. I mean, to the point where, in a lot of ways, some genres that exist today would not exist if it wasn't for hip-hop sampling things.

51:35

There was a ton of people who would say, this is not art because you're stealing someone else's stuff and you're using it for your own. That's what they would legit say about, you know, this form of expression, this creative outlet. What do you have to say to these people who would say such a thing? So sampling, that's just like taking sound bites of like other's music and putting it in your own, right? I mean, I guess like because the...

52:04

the song in its entirety is unique. I don't really, I don't know. I guess I don't really see the issue. Unless it was just made completely of samples, then I don't really understand the issue. Actually opening another camera room because since you know about dubstep, do you know about vaporwave? I don't really know much about that or really anything about that. So vaporwave is a genre, subgenre technically of music.

52:33

And the whole premise is, you know what? I'm actually going to play another excerpt that I think could be helpful in giving some additional context to this. Cause like, this is like some deep internet territory here that most people either don't know about or care for. So this is another video essay by Adam Neely. He repo-av in the context of music theory specifically. A call plunder phonics.

53:01

So what is Vaporwave? The short answer is Vaporwave is a counter-cultural musical that alternatively critiques and embraces consumer capitalism. If you want a more in-depth cultural critique of Vaporwave, don't worry, the internet is full of think pieces for you to read. As well as many videos, particularly by the internet's favorite memester, Frank Javsy. Today I'm going to try and codify some of it in terms of music theory. Trying to analyze it in terms of music theory seems to be kind of against the spirit of the thing. It is, after all, the musical equivalent of a troll phase. But I'm going to do it anyway. Learning about things can be really cool.

53:30

The musical style Vaporwave owes a lot of its roots to something called plunder phonics. In his 1985 essay Plunderphonics or Audio Piracy as Compositional Corroggative, John Oswald argued that musical recordings themselves should be treated as a form of musical instrument. A sampler is simultaneously a documenting device and a creative one, in effect, producing a distinction manifested by Oswald's work entirely by using samples of other people's songs. Check out his version of Dolly Parton's Pretender for example.

53:58

So in 1989, following a complete by Michael Jackson, all copies of his album, Plunderphonic 6996, were ordered destroyed by the Canadian Recording Industry Association. Oh, how far we've come since then. This plunderphonic approach, taking other recordings and repurposing them for other contexts, is at the core a lot of vaporwave recording.

54:16

So no matter how many Canadian authorities are out there, it's going to be very difficult to kill Vaporwave. The original speed of Vaporwave artists got their start by slowing down 80s smooth jazz, soul and funk records. So let's try it. Let's make some Vaporwave, shall we? I have here an album by Diana Ross, Swept Away, written in 1984. I'm gonna take the fourth track, It's Your Move. I have it here in Ableton. It was a genre and as a stylistic choice. A lot of it comes down to basically taking something else that already exists and then...

54:46

either A, reinterpret it in your own way, or B, literally do it as is, but changing basically nothing, maybe besides like one thing, maybe the speed of it, maybe it's the pitch, so on and so forth, following so far. So is this not art from your perspective? I mean, if you're manipulating it to make it, I guess your own, then yes, it's art. But I mean, if you're not.

55:12

Yeah, the gray area I'm getting at is that like, how far can you push this concept to its logical extreme though? Yeah. I'm, I honestly don't really have a good answer for that. I don't think like, Like who gets to draw the line between reinterpreting something in your own way to just not really doing much at all. Maybe besides just re uploading it as is, you know, that kind of thing. It gets to, yeah. Like.

55:38

So one of the things that stood out to me as we talked about this, it's a bit of a critique of like copyright, at least what Maple Wave stands for and the underlying movement underneath of it, because the rush of that is made of material that typically comes from very popular hit songs. And as you probably know by now, if you dare use anything that has copyright attached to it, you'll be sent to cease and desist or DMCA or whatever the equivalent term is, you know? It's kind of like you...

56:07

deciding to make merch out of like Pokemon and say, cool, I made those. It's like Nintendo, they're just gonna come kill you. You can try. Just be aware that Nintendo is going to send, you know, an army after you. So that's kind of like the exact same kind of thing and notion that, I'm not going to say sought out to challenge, but they definitely make sure to make the question obvious at that point. It's like, you know, who does draw the line? You know? I wonder if it's the community would have to decide.

56:37

as a collective is the way things are causing harm. The community as in? I guess music, spitballing, because I'm not really sure. You're sure to describe music community. What would come to mind? Who would be part of such a community? I don't know if it would just be like vapor wave. How does that make you feel, me asking you those questions? I mean, it just makes me feel that, I don't know. I guess I feel kind of silly that I don't have

57:08

a better answer. Specifically, how does that make you feel that I'm bringing you up to speed to the old debate of sampling versus non-sampling, that kind of thing, you know? Not so much of like your interpretation of things, but your response to this debate itself. How does that make you feel that there's a debate to begin with in terms of is sampling art, is dubstep art? How does that make you feel? I don't know. It feels like a giant tangle because they're just hard to make a definitive decision about

57:38

So would you say it would be worth being open-minded in terms of appreciating the merit of dubstep as an artistic form of expression? Yeah, sure. Why is that? Because remember, you know, people hate Skrillex. They don't like him because he does it. He does it in big art. It's not real art. Why should they appreciate it in the open-minded way? That's interesting. That's new to me. Like, I didn't know people just didn't consider what his music art.

58:08

Okay, so one of his hit songs literally does a sample in there that goes something like, these are just dumbasses making noise, no one here is a real musician, they're not artists because nobody plays in the dark. Herb Badum, it's a sample he used in his own songs. You can kind of see like why I do what I do now, huh? In terms of the whole intersection of arts, culture and tech thing, huh? Yeah, yeah. So yeah, people do not think that what he does is art.

58:38

There are people out there that really think that. And matter of fact, they will go as far to say that, not only they don't think it's hard, but they think it does not deserve to exist to begin with. You know, they should not be a thing. How does that make you feel that someone feels that strongly about what he makes Skrillex, that is? It just feels harsh, I think. Like, I mean, as much as I don't know much about him, I feel like, I mean, his music isn't completely ripped off. I mean, even if there's like a sound bite in there.

59:07

It just doesn't, I don't know, doesn't make a lot of sense to me, like what they're saying. It's also the core element too that people make as far as arguments go is that it's not in real music because it's played on a computer. That's really what a lot of these people are saying as well, you know? Yeah. I mean, people say that about digital art too. He's just some dumb kid that makes noises on his computer. He's not a real artist. You know, that's what people say. So you would say that would be a harsh way to look at things, huh?

59:37

Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's the same thing with like digital art. Like people said that about any digital paintings made like drawn in Photoshop. And so it's just it's the same thing, really. So like essential and excerpt from the video itself that I just played just now. You should be able to hit play and it should take you right to the section that I was hoping it would take you on. Play it for like a minute or so and like, oh, get back to me.

01:00:05

It's the video that says the music theory of vaporwave. Okay. So right about now, you should be around the part where he talks about plagiarism only occurs when the art is not bettered by the bar. I'm at three minutes, 30 seconds. I see the word phenomenology. So he definitely hit that point. So that part I wanted you to look at was specifically the part where he took that same sample from that song, showed you the process of how he did it,

01:00:35

There you go. That's the song that kind of in a way started this whole vaporwave craze. So, is this not art from your perspective? I mean, I feel like it is. I mean, it feels, it's a totally different, like, you get a totally different feeling from the changes he made to it. That word again, feeling. I remember earlier in the company we were talking about good visual art entice feelings out of the viewer. Is that what you're saying earlier, right?

01:01:05

Yeah, so that feeling that resonated with so many, you know, like it's the feeling that's still alive to this day. At least I'm alive. I hope I don't listen to Vaporwave in a lot of minutes, but I can tell you that Vaporwave as a genre hugely influenced a lot of the music I listen to. Molly Sharp actually is like one of the examples I can think of off the top of my head. He does house music, future funk, which is itself a subgenre of Vaporwave.

01:01:32

But I'm not going to get into that kettle worm. That's like a whole different thing. But the point I'm getting at though, is that same video essay with the exit call I showed you and Skrillex and so many others, there are very vocal critics that say that what they do is not old. And you say that it's unnecessarily harsh test to old. So now in terms of the context of using computer to create art in different ways, let's say in the case of generative art, what is the-

01:02:02

Is this art? Is this not art? Keeping in mind that same framework of using a computer to create an output, the same way I described to you with SquirrelX and that other guy, and technically other software and stuff like that, that kind of thing. Well, I mean, I guess you could call it art. I don't think that they're artists. I don't know. It's just a completely different thing for me.

01:02:31

personally, like, because like either images and there's things in those images. So like, I guess people can say that it's art because it's an image of something like a generated illustration. Like it's called AI art, but not like if I don't know, it's just, it just seems like so disingenuous. It's

01:02:56

putting words into a prompt and having the computer generate it and then like claiming credit for it, it just never sets to me. Here's another thing I wanted to bring to your attention. So I can go on the computer right now, quite literally, right? And make a song in less than 10 seconds. Is this not odd? Because I got there so quickly? Yeah, I mean, if you made the song in 10 seconds,

01:03:25

like you designed it, then I don't see why that wouldn't be art. Why would generative art not be held to that same standard? Because generative music actually is a subset of generative visual art. And that's the thing, you know, people can now generate music from scratch with simple prompts, or you can go into a music software.

01:03:51

Or really any software to be honest with you. There's a very interesting video I just saw literally yesterday. There's this guy. He, he did an experiment where he tried to make music with basically every known music software out there. But additionally, he used tools that are not exactly intended to be made music with. For example, the Venture Resolve. Do you know what that is? No. The Venture Resolve is a video editing software.

01:04:18

So you can kind of see the conundrum, right? Why the fuck would you try to make music with a video editing software? I'm not really sure. I mean, maybe it's for the fun of it. Maybe it's a challenge, but he definitely did and he pulled it off. But yeah, I'm going to send you the link to that video as well. I think it's going to give you like some interesting insights in terms of how people that create the music slash audio, how they use these tools. Um, but

01:04:44

to specifically hone in on generative versus non-generative. So my process of me describing, hey, I could go into a software right now and make a song from scratch in less than 10 seconds. The way I think of it personally, is this idea of being able to take, sound bites, notes, effects, what have you, and apply them really quickly, and then repeat that same process for a couple, what's called a bar, like in the software.

01:05:14

You can choose how long your stuff can be and you can decide is it gonna be two bars, four bars, eight bars, 16 bars and so on and so forth. So if I wanted to in theory I could just say you know what I'm gonna make a song that's like a thousand bars long which would be equivalent to like what a 10 hours give or take just conservatively. Would that be called art or not? I mean I don't see how lengths would matter. Length would matter in that context because purists would say

01:05:44

Real music is supposed to stick to a certain format. If I put out a song that's like a thousand hours long on Spotify, people will have some way about it. You know, they will feel some way about it. It's like, why would you make a song that long? What's the point? Sure. That's actually a very valid critique. And Deadmau5 speaks on that quite a bit in terms of like, yeah, people have said to him directly, you suck. And it's like, okay, tell me why then. Don't just tell me I suck at a context.

01:06:12

Like what sucked? Was it the melody? Was it, you know, the sound? Was it, you know, the mix? Don't just tell me I suck. Don't tell me what I do is not good enough for you to appreciate. You see my point? Mm-hmm. I mean, when it comes to like generative AI, like when they're putting words in a prompt, it's like a commissioner and like art director and like an artist relationship. Like, yeah, like

01:06:41

Art director says like, yeah, I want it to look this way, this and that, and the artist will make it, right? But the art director can't take credit for the artwork. Like I mean, sure you can say like AI, AR art is like considered art because it's like an image, but like I wouldn't consider prompters artists. They didn't design the composition. They didn't put the individual strokes down. It's like a slot machine.

01:07:11

I'm gonna repeat that exact same statement to you, but insert musical terms into it and see if you can catch along. So you're not a real musician, you know, why would you be? You don't use a real instrument, you don't use a piano, you don't use a guitar, you don't use your fingers to play any instrument at all. You just click a few buttons, you know, on your little mouse and, you know, put, move some stuff in your software and you hit play and then...

01:07:40

exported. How is that real music? I wouldn't say that those would be on completely equal standing. Just because the medium is digital doesn't mean that the musician isn't intentionally designing the placement of those sounds. And they still have their hands in the pot when they're making music, whether it's electronic or not.

01:08:09

they still have artistic intention. Like they're still moving parts around. I want you to focus on, they're still moving parts around. So software wise, whether it's generative software or traditional software where you can do everything, there are moving parts that if you don't know what you're doing, you can just like fumble your way around. And like you said, prompt stuff. I could just jump into any editing software right now and

01:08:37

Say like Photoshop, for example, and take, I don't know, like a picture of Jeff Bezos and put the Distorter effect on it and put a Blur effect on it and warp it and do all that in less than 10 seconds, you know, like with Dabby Art. I'm warping, distorting, putting a Blur effect, maybe putting some chromatic aberration too, if I'm feeling zyzz. Like less than 10 seconds, you know, and I can literally just like do that. Just change the picture like...

01:09:06

that way and then do another one if I wanted to, like 10 seconds flat. And what is it that you're editing? Just a picture of Jeff Bezos, nothing else. Mm-hmm. Would that be art? I mean, maybe. Also, Cause you're manipulating it, I guess. I mean, I don't know. It's like, it's kind of like an exhausting conversation because like, can anything, it can, it's a building art, like it's a bike.

01:09:34

Is it Bicycle Arch? I don't know. Can always go deeper and deeper, but I'm hoping you see what I'm getting at though, in terms of the underlying.

01:09:44

What do you think the point I'm getting at would be from your perspective? Just curious. Basically like challenging if generative AI is art or not, just because the computer made it. In a way a computer we use to make music, which some people will legit tell you to your face, it's not real music because you use the computer to make it. Then if someone has to be the judge to decide what is art or not, no one can be the judge, at least from my perspective, because

01:10:12

No one can actually agree on anything at that point. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, that's why I say, like, is AI art considered, should be considered art is not the question that really matters when it comes to that part of the conversation. Like, like you said, you can really ask if anything's art, even if it's not, like, intended to be art. So it's like- Another way to reductively look at this dilemma, or I guess this example.

01:10:40

is if a car crash occurs, right, which is pretty horrible, but it occurs. And then the photographer that happens to be nearby the photo, like mid, you know, while it's happening and then later on goes on to publish it. And, you know, would that be art? Yeah, that's a good question. Cause like he didn't intend to have it there. He wasn't part of the subject. He just happened to be around and then.

01:11:09

the car crash happened and then boom, it's in the picture. Actually, most famously, there are pictures of 9-11 that exist very much in that similar way where some people happen to be catching the building mid, you know, on the building with the plane. Yeah. So like- I'm honestly, I'm not sure. You can look at it in the sense of like intention, like the artist intention, or you can look at it in the perspective of the viewer and the impact that they get from it.

01:11:39

I don't really know. Yeah, I appreciate you for taking the time to even, I guess, sort of briefly touch on that specifically because one of the things that I've noticed doing this podcast and helping people in a wide range of disciplines is that they say the same things but in a different language. People say about musicians that, oh, what you do is not real music because you use a computer. But same way people say about...

01:12:05

people will use Photoshop, but you're not a real artist because you use Photoshop. It's a fairly consistent outlook to the point where even in the film industry, there will be people who unironically will tell you if you use a digital camera as in, you know, cameras that take batteries and you know, SD cards and shit, if you make film, it doesn't have a filmmaker. That's the thing. I just feel like when you're making artistic decisions and something like that makes a big difference.

01:12:35

With a camera, you have to decide the composition, the angle. That's the time of day. So many different factors. The moving parts, right? Like I described earlier. You can decide what goes where. You can decide. There's intent if you want them to be when it comes to how you use certain software. I can if I want to just use it as is and be lazy, quote unquote, and say, okay, you know what? I'm just going to take a...

01:13:04

Whatever picture I find online, take that same picture, just apply a blur effect on it and repost it and call that my art. Would that be art there? I mean, I feel like that'd be a little weird just because it's like, you didn't really like change it that much to really call it yours. The exact same point that the video about Vaporwave made though. Remember that one? Mm. Like that's literally the-

01:13:31

And in concept, that's what the guy that did the song did effectively. He just took that same song as is, didn't really change much and we put it out. And that was the work. So in this case, is this not art? It's like, is it ethical? That's a very good question. Because ethics is like a field for from an analytical standpoint, it poses a lot of very interesting scenarios, to say the least, and by a software engineer, no.

01:14:01

Do I make AI machines? No. Am I connected to people that do these things on a regular basis? Yes. Am I actively using software on a regular basis that is fairly advanced for someone of my level, whether it's an audio, video, or image? Also, yes. So in that sense, I'm a bit of a technical person. But to be clear, I don't make any of it. But what I can tell you, though, is that

01:14:28

ethical question number one that comes to mind for me logically when it comes to AI specifically is the element of consent. And that's something that you actually talk about quite a bit. So I'm very curious to know some of your thoughts as far as like what's consensual in that relationship of, you know, these AI art tools that are again software, right? Similarly with like regular software, like say Photoshop, someone has had to

01:14:55

get in there and figure out, OK, this is what goes where. This is what's supposed to look like for the UI as a user interface. Basically, market research to figure out, here's what the competitors are doing. Here's what the users would want to use this tool for, and then deploy said tool. That's the kind of reductionism that I'm talking about here. Yeah, I mean, it is a big issue of consent, because it's somebody's data, right? And it's not just about the user.

01:15:23

The fact that you can use that data to mimic someone and potentially replace that person is kind of nutty to me that people don't see the issue with that. It's completely okay. How? Yeah. A lot of people have this perspective that if your job is able to be made obsolete from AI, then you deserve to not have that job. I don't really understand that.

01:15:52

It just seems very unempathetic. You know what's funny? People actually do the exact same argument, but in terms of coding, they say, well, if you're not that good of a coder that ChadGPC can code better than you, then whoopdeedoo should have learned to code better. Right. How do you feel about these people losing their jobs? Coders. Yeah, coders. People that work in-

01:16:16

software people that are AI based, you know, and to be clear when I say AI, I don't mean like AI at all, I mean AI, the discipline, you know, the scientific field of research. There are people out there that are not that great when it comes to, you know, their skills and it could be for a variety of reasons. It could be like a practice, it could be like knowledge, or it could just simply be lack of creativity in some instances too, because some people are just, you know, like when you're just...

01:16:40

or so bored of your nine to five that you just do the exact same thing. And it's like plug and play. So yeah, like these people have to get replaced simply because. Yeah. I can now certainly do their job better than them from your perspective. I mean, I don't think so. I mean, I feel like mass replacement is, it's just like a, a huge problem, a huge potential problem across. I mean, almost all in, in, in, in danger of this. Like.

01:17:09

The past episodes I've had was with this guy. He's an electrician. Actually, he went to trade school for that specifically. So tech power line, fixing houses and that type of s***. That's like his wheelhouse. And interestingly enough, he said that like he's pretty future pro right now in terms of his job security because AI definitely dare it in terms of like, what are you going to do? Dispatch a humanoid and have it try to fix a pole. It's not really going to work out great.

01:17:38

But what he is getting at though is essentially that right now what's currently happening in these industries, whether it's visual art, gaming, writing, music, film, there's an incentive for people to be let go of because they're no longer necessary from the point of the people who hire them. And that's the ethical concern. That would be the second big ethical concern. Should a company

01:18:06

whatever company let go of their staff just because it can save cost. Do they have a right to do so from your point? Oh, man. I don't know. Cause I feel like it's a snowball effect. Like, cause when it starts affecting too many people, like now what? Do people just depend on UBI? I don't know. Actually the third important ethical question. So we've gone through the motion of describing effectively what software is in the context of, you know,

01:18:36

how someone might use it as a tool, right, so far. And then to then describing, okay, here's what the software actually does in terms of what people do with it in terms of intent. And then to set tool playing a big role in the potential replacements of not just a few people, not even just a few hundreds, but hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people. Right? Yeah. So now that next ethical piece is like, hey,

01:19:05

in the context where people are people that were expendable to begin with. Because let's be clear, the gaming industry that I'm aware of, it's hyper competitive. What you're saying, correct? Right. So you can just like get in and, you know, get comfortable and say, cool, I'm, I'm cozy for the next 10, 20 years. You know? I guess if they're lucky. I mean, it seems like you're going. Oh, sorry. It just seems layoffs are happening everywhere now. Like, I would honestly be surprised.

01:19:34

I'm more surprised to hear about people staying that long, because I feel like layoffs are just so much more common. I feel like people that will legit not be affected are the showrunners of these companies. People who... People who, for the lack of a better term, not necessarily call the shots, per se, but let's say, you know the game got a war by chance? Yeah. Yeah, it's like the guy that designed slash thought out...

01:20:01

the entire concept and story for God of War, like, he'll be fine because the IP is tied to him. You can't just like, or rather, people say, oh cool, we don't need you anymore, we don't need your vision, because his vision was what made the game arguably as successful as it was. At least in my opinion. And I truly highly recommend you check out the documentary about God of War. It's actually a very insightful documentary. First of all, the game took five years to make. As in...

01:20:29

the new PS4 version of God of War, not like the old school one, like the early gaming days, because I remember you said you were a gamer too, right? So that game took five years to make, first of all. And second of all, it took a lot of people to make it. So in a context of if that same scenario happened where, instead of that game being made back then, it was made today, this AI hype, disturbance, I feel like quite a bit of these people would have stayed on staff.

01:20:59

Honest assessment, borderline blind judgment goes as far as that's concerned. Designing a game like that goes so much farther beyond, oh, you're just someone who makes, you know, rigs, 3D rigs and stuff like that, therefore we don't need you anymore. I think a lot of that pipeline and the way it operates, it relies so much on the vision of the director to begin with that if they decide to just get rid of stuff along the way, then it's going to affect the end results.

01:21:29

It's kind of like an orchestra where you're directing the band and then progressively you get rid of the drummer, the bassist, the trombonist, you know, stuff like that. I feel like in the gaming industry specifically, a lot of it plays this way, but these are for big IPs though, so-called AAA games. These are the ones that I think, structure-wise, long term, they'll be fine.

01:21:53

Assuming that the vision required to execute them is complex enough that you can't just afford to get rid of people Even if you could, you know that kind of thing. But then when you compare that to the more Smaller scale stuff, you know indie stuff or even the recent riot game situation Oh, these games are mates But what I do know is that there are people in these companies that have what I would refer to Ailer job there because you have a job but at this a lot of what you do is more based around

01:22:22

adding finishing touches. So unfortunately in a scenario like that, at Riot Games we let go because what they do for the company and that has the pipeline of what the game is supposed to look like on arrival. And if it doesn't impact it from the bottom up, then that's what's gonna start going out first. And it feels to me that character designers, background designers, even people that do story boardings, it's gonna be like a mass wave of layoffs.

01:22:52

That's just the beginning. And here's what I'm getting at, the ethical piece going back to the whole UBI situation. So personally, I'm someone who really thinks that people should be paid fairly for their labor, whatever that labor is. And I'm actually glad that like you, one of those people thinks similarly, because I remember before I even started this session right now, you were saying, hey, you're about to write about me. How much money do you want for that? I don't know.

01:23:20

It feels so funny that you said that in that context, but the fact that you can acknowledge that what I do is labor is appreciated because it is, you know? Like it's not just, what do you do? I sit on my computer and just press enter and boom, here's another one. Yeah, I mean, what you do is super time consuming. I had to ask. Yeah, time and energy. Like, it's just people's time is limited. People's time is important. I have strong feelings about time.

01:23:49

Fair enough, as you should, to be honest. Personally, I wouldn't want to trade my time with another company that I feel is just a soulless thing that makes ultimately nothing of impact or meaning in the grand scheme of things. Me too. I feel really strongly about that. And I tend to have like pretty limited endurance when it comes to trying to stay somewhere long term that I just don't really connect with.

01:24:19

So that's why I'm like, man, I really want to work in games because I really care about games. But the games industry in particular is so, so rocky and so unstable. Gosh. So of course. Pre-AI was rocky as fuck to break into, but now post-AI? Realistically speaking, what's your percentage of estimation of your chances of breaking in when you actually put in honest to god attempt to really get in there?

01:24:45

Oh gosh, I feel like I would probably be bouncing around like indies for a while. It's hard. Like if I really stayed the course on improving like my skills, I'd like to be optimistic that it'd be possible. But it's like when I see all these people that are also job hunting, they're already super skilled and they have that industry level skill. It's like, okay, well, at that point, like if you have the skill and you're still not getting a job, it's out of your control. So.

01:25:15

I don't know. I have mixed feelings about whether it would be possible. I mean, I don't like saying something's impossible. Like, I think a lot of it is luck and timing and the people you know. And I just think like you have to take advantage of all of those things. You have to put yourself out there and test and try to put yourself in more situations where you can get lucky as much as possible.

01:25:44

And I feel like if you just keep on doing that and you keep being a good person, something will happen eventually. I mean, Dead Nose actually said a very similar thing in terms of how he got his big break into the industry because for him, he was dicking around for a long ass time. You know, like just working on and off at studios, whether it's radios or, you know, actual music studios or doing the occasional collab here and there. But.

01:26:12

he had to tally up his opportunities so that he's done so enough times that people went, you know what, this dead mouse guy, like he's actually not that bad. Like what else he got? You know, that kind of thing. Interesting. So he has like a whole three hour 40 minute podcast I can send you away later for you to dive into.

01:26:36

I don't know if you're much of a podcast person, but as you probably can tell by now, podcasts for me is a super valuable resource because I get to hear from people with their own mouths, you know? Like, it's one thing to read an article about somebody, it's another thing to read or rather watch a video about what they say on an interview, but something about podcasts still actually really dives into the meat of like, okay, this is what this person is really about. It would be pretty hard to fake instances on things when it comes to such a long format, you know?

01:27:05

Unless you're some fucking sociopath or whatever shit, but hey. What I wanted to bring up earlier though, in terms of the whole mass wave of layoffs and how it's going to affect people is in the gaming industry, specifically in art industry. One of the past people I've featured in this podcast was a 3D artist and digital illustrator. And a lot of what they do currently uses AI tools and they currently work at a company as we speak. They're based in London.

01:27:34

That's like their turf and the company that they work for basically does a lot of like marketing slash promotional material for events and stuff like that. That's like my general understanding, but they've been working there for some time. And here's the kicker. They've said that actually they're not trying to stay in this industry long-term. They kind of want to eventually if they can afford to break out and do their own things, I don't like what you want to do currently. And I think you're one of their pieces that you can take a look at. Give me some of your thoughts about that.

01:28:04

in the Discord DMs. What are your thoughts? Looks interesting. I'm reading through their caption. So, storytelling experimenting with technology such as 3D AR and VR create immersive and interactive experience for the audience. Huh. And also they use AI quite a bit in their play playing. My question to you off the bat, if I were to ask you to try and take a bet and figure out which of these pieces on their profile was made by AI.

01:28:33

Which one would you wager is made by AI? And when I say made by AI specifically, I mean using AI in some way should perform in the process. It doesn't mean entirely made by AI, it just means software-based. It's like, hey, somewhere along the way a tool was used that gave you this current output that you're currently looking at. The cartoon versions of her, maybe the background. I mean- Can you tell-

01:29:02

I mean, like, I'm not the best at spotting AI, but it's like, sometimes there are tells where like, an image just like looks too synthetic, just gives off this uncanny valley type, like the stripes on the sleeve. It reminds me of like those TikTok trends where there's like an anime filter over like a dancer or something. Yeah, I got it. So spoiler alert, I've been leading you down there.

01:29:32

but hold this all time. None of this is AI. None of it. Yeah, I mean, so specifically, to be clear, AI was used in the sense that the ideation process, yeah, like from their testimony, they talk about the process in the world it plays and then getting them closer to the kind of results they're trying to get and then building on top of that. But as far as output goes, though, like none of what you're looking at is a boom, prop that AI and then whoop dee do, there's an art piece.

01:30:02

Right, right. Yeah, I figured if she would have used AI, she would have mentioned it in her description, but she only said 3D AR and VR. So I was like, maybe I'm probably wrong. But the point I'm getting at though, like, those use AI though. It's just like, it's part of the process. It's part of the toolkit. See my point? So that's like another example. I sent you another Twitter account real quick. It should take you to their media feed. Let me know when you get on there. I want you to tell me from your perspective, whether or not what you're looking at is AI.

01:30:31

For those listening along, this would be the artwork of Canva, tagging 24NVA on Twitter. I honestly wouldn't be able to tell you, like definitively. But to be honest, here's what stood out to me pretty immediately. This is someone who has a lot of photos on their feed, right? It says 3,700 photos.

01:31:00

That's a lot of photos. So it's either they've been active for a long time, which they're not, the account joined in 2021. So it's only been three years, right? Or it's that they're really prolific, which again, prolific in what sense? Have they had like a huge backlog of like old word that they never posted anywhere and then suddenly opened the floodgate? Possibly, but even then, that's an insane amount of output, but you can kind of see

01:31:30

And kind of see how it works out for them though. Cause if you look on the actual engagement of these pieces, super high, I'm talking like hundreds of thousands and some instances, likewise, that is still can tell if it's AI or not. I couldn't tell you with a hundred percent confidence. If the only way you can tell is through their account age and their output. Yeah. Like I don't know. Would it be fair to judge someone on their output in terms of how much they're putting out, would that discredit the work that they're doing?

01:31:59

I mean, it's like, if you're trying to figure out that it's AI or not, maybe, but like, and I don't really know, like the most general sense, if you're just making a lot of art, I mean. I sent you a specific image that personally, again, so remember how earlier in the convo, way earlier, I was telling you, hey, I have three modes when I go on Twitter, or really online in general. I have my research mode. I have my...

01:32:25

stroll slash you know shitpost mode and then I have my hey let me go to my art museum department so I can take it in that kind of thing right so when I'm in that mode I go on this person's profile a lot like way too often for my own good to be honest what can I say I'm a big like I mean sure you technically and like you were you grew up in the early 90s you know so there was a time where such

01:32:55

Probably came out of your radar, I would assume, yeah. What aesthetics do you mean? 24k and the artwork that's on their page. It gives off an early 90s vibe, doesn't it? It does give off a dated... It gives me Ghost in the Shell vibes. So straight up early 90s, and to be honest, I cannot get enough of it. I'm like, bro, why is this person publishing a manga or a book or some shit out somewhere so I can go that deeper into it?

01:33:23

That's how good that stuff is. And to my knowledge, they don't have anything. What they do do though, they sell NFTs. Like as, as in last I looked into it. And again, this is just me spit balling here. Some of these people that make NFTs with their artwork earn anywhere between a few hundred dollars or 400 plus to shoot thousands in some instances. And actually one of the artists I've done the coverage about is a female photographer.

01:33:53

by the name of Selmer Wagner. And at the peak of what was going on in early 2020 slash late 2021, one of their pieces sold for $15,000. Wow. Now just the fact that an NFT can sell for that much is nuts. No, I'm talking about Selmer Wagner here, the photographer. Yeah, they sold their work. Sorry, it's getting late. Good, good. But again, the point I'm getting at though, so.

01:34:20

That visual artists and somerwagnet, they make art in different ways credit, but they use unconventional so called technologies or at least, I don't know for sure. The one about the Gustin Michelle vibes for sure, I cannot tell you what's the eye or what's not. For the sake of my own curiosity, I looked into it to really see what was going on that I cannot tell you. I genuinely cannot tell. I have no idea. But to be honest with you, the emotional impact as far as I'm concerned

01:34:50

Even if it was AI from my vantage point, I would just say, oh, how did you do it then? Because I would be very curious to look into the process of what that looks like. Remember earlier I was telling you that if I wanted to, I could make a song in like 10 seconds. I kind of cheated a little bit there by saying that I could. Technically I can, but the reason why I can is because I already have established knowledge pool of audio engineering, you know?

01:35:20

So I can just get in there, figure stuff out very quickly. So something tells me that if this person is using AI, the way they're using it is that they kind of use a base layer and then draw on top of that and then add another layer and then keeps doing that repetitively. That makes any sense. So that would be the only way I would consider this to be possible because to my knowledge, AI tools, especially AI tools that make

01:35:48

this aesthetic, that kind of like Manga early 90s, they're not that good, or they're actually pretty garbage. Like, I know that because that's my thing. I research technology in general. But yeah, this is just one example. And this brings us right back to this question of like employability and labor and UBI. So someone that level of consistency across the board, regardless of what tools they use, deserve to be employed for that skill.

01:36:16

Like you're saying, do they deserve to be employed for skill that's easily replaced? Well, if someone can replace what I just showed you on their feed, then yeah, do you think they deserve to get replaced? I don't think so. I'm very averse to, especially on a large scale. I don't know. It's an underlying ethical issue that I very much agree with. I'm not too well read on it, but... I would highly recommend in your own time.

01:36:46

You look into ACER's public access to court electronics records. So this would be a federal website as a government's president and all that stuff in their purposes to document every instance of legal cases made. Whether it's copyright, tax related, all that stuff. It's all in there, according to my research. Additionally, I would highly recommend you look into this documentary featuring this guy called Aaron.

01:37:15

warts is involved in terms of shaking up understanding of the copyright system was monumental. Do you happen to know who that is by chance? I don't think so. So Aaron Schwartz is the co-founder of Reddit and he also is the guy that created Creative Commons. Do you know what that is? I don't think so. Creative Commons. As in the underlying electronic system that that

01:37:43

makes it possible for that to be a thing. He helped build that. Oh, okay. Learn that. To learn something new today. A lot of things the more you talk to me, you'll be very surprised. He's responsible for the RSS feed. Do you know what that is? I do not. It's the thing that website use to keep track of content across the internet so that...

01:38:07

If someone, say, wants to subscribe to my podcast from a linear, they can, because there's an RSS feed they can subscribe to. The underlying technology that enables that, he's helped build it to make it possible. That's how I'm able to reach that many people with the podcast I currently have, even though I don't have a big following. Interesting. OK. So now, given that I've covered a lot of these, I know we've kind of rabbit hopped from thing to thing, but we definitely.

01:38:36

to a fairly consistent narrative thread in terms of, you know, the role of technology and how it's impacting my research and artistic inclinations and, you know, and all that stuff. But you know all this about me, like what are your thoughts? Like you said, I could learn a lot like from you just based off of like all the perspectives that you've gained from all the hours of discussions you've had with people. Or research, you know.

01:39:05

But yeah, like it's, I'm just wondering, that's like my second to last question for you. Do you, did you have any preconceived notion before we got into like this chat? Like did you have a certain expectation how things were going to go? Not really. I didn't know what to expect. Fair enough. The way I think of the internet, especially as someone who comes from a country, which again I'm a foreigner. I come from a country where technology existed.

01:39:35

played a role in my life, but was fairly sparse in terms of like how I would be able to access it. For starters, I had to pay to get on the internet. As every hour, I would have to spend $25 to be online. Wow, that's insane. Holy crap. And additionally, we didn't really get that much in return, to be honest with you, as far as like internet speeds goes. So a little something like

01:40:02

torrenting came along really changed the game for me. Do you know what torrenting is? Isn't that sort of like pirating kind of? It's a technology. It's a suite of tools that are designed to allow the users to seamlessly share data in a decentralized fashion peer to peer, you know? Oh, okay. So.

01:40:30

You would be correct in the sense that, you know, some of that data can be considered piracy, but the underlying technology was not designed for piracy. Right. So someone like me actually was unable to participate into the global economy in a few ways, because I know what I know today about audio engineering when it comes to music and video and all that stuff, because I've downloaded copies of Photoshop and, you know,

01:41:00

Adobe After Effects, Ableton, you know, all these others are flare. I would not be able to access any of those had I not been able to use Tarranty. You know? So that's where I'm coming from in terms of like how my views are informed on things. I'm thinking the logical scenario of, okay, it's impacting people in so-called first world countries, which is, you know, that's what the US is from my vintage point, my country where I'm from is in the top 10.

01:41:30

most poorest country of the entire Western atmosphere. What that means is, where I'm from, you'd be lucky to get even a tenth of what you guys get here, you know? All of this to say that, you know, the UBI's topic for me hits especially close to home because forget UBI being put into place in the global north. What does UBI look like across the globe, period, you know, in these countries that are not as...

01:41:57

Connected, you know, that's plugged in with this and you know with this technological evolution It's been the menace has us have been you know in my own country, but I recall We're just progress 3g 5g technology and all that stuff It took some time to catch up a lot of time by the time that stuff was already up and running Infrastructure wise we'd be lucky to have like something even half of the as decent So if you'll be I was to be main to the in effect

01:42:26

I'm very interested to see how it's going to impact people from where I'm from and people in other places. The African continent, Southeast Asia, and South America too, obviously. These are places that I instantly think about in terms of like, okay, what's going to happen in a world like that? Right. Well, my last question to you is, you know, how do you think they're going to be impacted if it was to be a thing in the future? Like how impacted? No, just people in general, not just artists. With this whole UBI system.

01:42:55

people that don't live in places like America or Europe and stuff like that.

01:43:02

I'm honestly, I have no idea how to impact them. I don't even know if it would be implemented correctly. I don't know. Cause if it's implemented correctly, do all the problems go away? I'm just curious about any new problems that would come from it. I don't have a good answer for it. Okay, can you think of new problems that could come about from KUBLA-centric world?

01:43:31

off the top of your head? I mean, I guess like running out of money to fund UBI would, I don't know, would like certain groups of people like, like You're giggling I just, I'm not really good at articulating my thoughts Sure To be honest, this is the most articulated conversation I've ever had in a long while That's kind of saying something Maybe I need better rest

01:43:59

Yeah, maybe you do, because I feel like I'm not doing a great job at all. But I beg to differ. I don't know. I feel like the people listening to this would agree with me, but well, she, well, yeah, like the whole money thing you just brought up, you know, like, yeah, run out of money as in the government running out of money. Or yeah, yeah. Like, or would start like we would marginalize groups, went into problems. Like, I don't know. I

01:44:25

It's hard for me to imagine what that system would look like. And because I just don't, I'm not well versed in like economics. I don't know how that would affect other places in the world or other people. Actually a fair answer. And that brings an interesting question, you know, from your vintage point. And I know I kind of said this would be the last question, but this is actually the legit last question. So when you hit a wall and you don't know something, what do you do?

01:44:55

I in what context like during conversation or I wanted is like if you don't know something in read a lot and the premise here is that for you to progress further you have to know more. What do you do? Research right? If you don't know something you want to know more you research. You admit you don't know something. Yeah or that. That too. I personally what I realized.

01:45:24

I never thought of what I was doing as research before, simply because I'm just dicking around on the internet. I'm just looking at fucking the wave in such nonsense, right? But a lot of these concepts I just brought up to you today, you had no idea these were even a thing. So really is research. Yeah, true. At least research enough that someone is willing to go, you know what?

01:45:49

I don't know what the fuck this crazy dude is on about, but clearly he's onto something, so I'm gonna subscribe to his stuff and listen to him. Yeah, put people on the internet. That's the question I'm getting from people. But yeah, so how much research do you do on a day to day though in terms of like stuff that you're curious about? Assuming you have the time to do so, that is. Mm, I mean, it can literally be hours. Like...

01:46:12

If I really, really want to know more about something, I'll spend hours on it for multiple days, if I really have that much time to spare. For example, what's going on in Palestine. When it first hit the news, I didn't know much about Palestine or Israel at all. And I spent that whole day researching as much as I could to come to my own conclusions.

01:46:38

I guess it was very easy to form an opinion on it after I did some research. I spent a lot of time making sure I underexcited what was happening. Given that one of my past guests actually, we talked about that topic. I'm just curious, I want to link that thread. What conclusion did you come to when it comes to this? So let's start in Israel saying that hit the news recently. I mean, I think it's a genocide. I think it's one of the...

01:47:08

biggest events in my life that I've witnessed from afar, where it was like a no brainer to figure out the ethics of the situation, what's ethical and what's unethical. I just found it dumbfounding how it was so controversial that collective punishment is a bad thing. I was like, are we really arguing about bombing innocent people right now? I don't understand, I am dumbfounded.

01:47:38

happened when 2020 happened? 2020 as in COVID? Do you remember what else happened in 2020? Oh, Black Lives Matter movement, right? George Floyd, yep. George Floyd, yeah, sorry. It's late. Bad memory. Close that little pencil. Because I think another thing that I want to mention real quick too, I don't know what I do in terms of these podcasts, is that I'll reference things from across the libraries to follow already published in the past simply because

01:48:07

Again, the point of me doing coverage about in a session of Ars Culture and Tech, it's not just as like a niche hobby or like a niche interest of like, Hey, like you really yap about VipAway with this really talented visual artists for three hours. That would be you by the way. But for me, I really feel that what I learned in this conversation was one key lesson, which really is that turns out.

01:48:34

There's a whole lot about you I didn't know and there's a whole lot about you I wish to know more about. And I really want to see what the future is going to look like for you and your career in terms of what you pursue in the art space. And I really want to do what I can to help you in terms of the contacts I have. Because like I said, this podcast alone has enabled me to keep in touch with people that are, I'd say, the least very influential in some ways or forms, not to play that card, but I will. And for that one specific instance, because

01:49:03

That one girl I just showed you from earlier, for example, on their Instagram account. This could be a great way for you to start in terms of, hey, learning about what they've done to be in a place where, relatively speaking, they have a secure position and stuff like that. Places worth looking into. Would you agree? Mm-hmm. Yeah, I really appreciate your curiosity, and I feel like I learned a lot about you, too. This would conclude this conversation. I appreciate you for letting me be with you for that long.

01:49:33

Oh, well, thank you. I appreciate you bringing me on here and asking me these questions that I may or may not answered articulately, but it is what it is. You did great. I would have wished to touch on your art more, but since you don't have much new material for me to really get into that in the near future, I would very much love to spotlight some more of your actual stuff, especially in the video essay format because I'm

01:50:02

I tackle YouTube next, that's like the big next leap for me. In your tweet, actually, I would very much dive into some of that stuff and other social networks. It reminds me of early days, PS1 games, especially the last. Think Spyro, the dragon, the purple little. Yeah. Oh, I love Spyro. That's what I got from it. That was my emotional response. Oh, I like that. I wish this was a video game. I would play it. Why? I appreciate that. And I'll

01:50:31

Definitely be putting more work up this year, I think, because I'm so ready to evolve. I feel like I've been in a cocoon forever. Welcome to the journey, then. As I go along, keep up with you, and give you some updates in terms of what other artists are up to, since I have a bit more time to explore out to different people from different fields. I met with what I said earlier, though, in terms of, like, hey, I remember I saw a tweet. You posted what you were saying.

01:50:59

Do you actually talk to people on here? Do you actually like people, you know, do the all human thing and it's like, the thing that you do, you know, like, and I'm the same way. I don't treat people as if like, oh, you're just like an online profile. You don't matter to me. Right. So whatever way I can like, help out in that sense, like, literally let me know. Well, thank you so much. So yeah, this was Paloma McClain, visual artist to the asset artist at Red Essence Game.

01:51:29

lover of fantasy RPGs. Yep. Hashtag create, don't scrape. Yep. Is there anything else like to let people know about yourself or whatever you have coming up that you would want to go support? I would just say I know, like, I don't have a lot going on in my portfolio right now, but maybe check back throughout the year and hopefully I'll have more interesting stuff up as I try to improve. But yeah, I think that's about it.

01:51:58

I feel like you could benefit some more for doing more self-talk. I feel like the world deserves to know more about you and you definitely have that kind of talent. And that's coming from someone who's not even a visual artist like that. I know the principles that go into it, but I've never tried to do this whole thing that you do. To me, what you do is like wizard shit at this point. So the point I'm getting at is put that there at least so I can actually see more of it, hopefully on my feed.

01:52:28

appreciation when I can whenever I see it. And yeah, yeah, really. Yeah. Whatever you got coming up next, I'll be sure to subscribe to that. And I will also make sure to link to all your stuff in the article when I do put it out. Because I feel like we did cover a lot of grounds, but I specifically want to give people insights in terms of the reality of being someone trying to break into the industry. I feel like it could be very helpful in that sense. Oh, well.

01:52:56

I hope I end up being a success story. I'll see. But time will tell. Sure. Stay optimistic, man. Well, thanks for coming on, and yeah, man, that's basically it.