[WP:12] Summer Wagner: Turning Dreams Into Reality
What Lies Beyond Our Senses
Preface
The following discusses Summer Wagner, their work, photography, community, crypto currencies and this new art market that has emerged from the 2021 digital renaissance.
You can find their social profiles and digital exhibition at the following.
Additionally you can check out their digital exhibition for their art sales at Art Of The Millennium.
Summer Wagner: Prism Of The Valley
Subscribe on the Podcast on YouTube.
Artist Analysis
We’re not going to touch on anything controversial today, unless you consider manipulating the mind to be that, controversial. Photography as an art form has long been questioned in terms of its validity, and ability to affect the mind. You’re now a bug in a dream land of Summer’s own doing and depending on your perspective, you’re either trapped in her domain, or your a tourist exploring the edge where reality’s very fabric starts to deconstruct.
A person with a camera, that is what the Twitter bio of “bugindreamland” reads as. And yet, one can’t help but wonder if the scenes depicted in the artist’s work are indeed captured with a camera… Or perhaps we’re observing something from a realm different than ours, just within our grasp to interact with but not so close that we can confirm the suspicion of what it is we’re observing.
Sometime the feeling of unease laced with a sensation of weightlessness overcome our senses. Other times, we have no choice but to ask ourselves if what we see is not a figment of our own imagination, something riding the fine line between mania, confusion and earnest curiosity. This is in summary what you can expect in the digital gallery Summer has to offer.
Those who are familiar with Junji Ito, know that the personality of the artist is a stark contrast to their work, Summer is the latest addition to this long list of oddities.
“I was posting my stuff on Instagram with no ambition. But I was getting censored. I just wasn’t meeting anybody on the platform that was helping me grow. I ended up going on Twitter to post my work (as of September 2021).”
Finding community for anyone is challenging and the artist found theirs very early on at a time where the collective photography circle of Twitter was spear heading this unknown territory called blockchain.
“I think a lot of us contemplate the mourning or loss of natural environment, or the merging of the urban and natural environment.”
It’s fascinating to observe the evolving dynamics of human connections in the digital age. Gone are the days when the internet was perceived as a scary place where one should avoid interacting with strangers. In today's world, forming friendships and intimate relationships with people met online has become a common trend.
Summer is someone who comes from an era where the internet was seen as a potential threat to privacy and security, which is intriguing considering the openness with which people now embrace online connections in the communities who intersect blockchain and art. The possibilities that arise from such connections are vast, and it's interesting to explore how they have sparked new ways of meaning-making.
“I use the camera to create unnaturally natural landscapes.”
One aspect that stands out is the ability to connect with people without ever seeing their faces. In the past, this might have seemed unfathomable, but now it's a reality. Through online platforms, people can form friendships, share their thoughts and experiences, and support each other emotionally, even without meeting in person. This challenges traditional notions of what constitutes a "real" friendship, as these online connections can be just as meaningful and fulfilling as those formed in person.
Furthermore, the internet has become a space where people can learn to navigate social situations, build trust, and invest time in meaningful relationships. Online interactions require a different set of skills compared to face-to-face interactions, and many individuals have become adept at discerning who to trust and who to avoid. This can be a valuable skill that translates into offline interactions as well, as it sharpens one's ability to discern genuine connections from superficial ones.
However, there are also challenges that come with forming relationships online. The absence of physical cues and the reliance on written communication can make it difficult to truly know and understand someone. There is also the issue of vulnerability, as opening up to strangers online can be daunting, and there is always the risk of encountering dishonest or insincere individuals. As the internet can be both a supportive and toxic space, it's important to exercise caution and discernment in online interactions.
The artist is an introvert, about as classic as they come. The struggles of navigating online interactions while also preserving personal boundaries and emotional well-being are real. It's important to strike a balance between being open and vulnerable while also being discerning and cautious. Building a positive online community that aligns with one's values and supports personal growth can be a rewarding experience.
“I did not come to twitter to sell my photography, it just happened.
The photo more so than me, is what connects emotionally with the audience.”
As an artist, the connections that one forms with others can be a powerful and transformative experience. These connections, however, are not limited to just fellow artists or photographers. In fact, some of the most meaningful interactions can come from unexpected sources - from regular folks who happen to come across and support the work of an artist.
When asked about the likelihood of such connections occurring with non-artists, Summer reflects on the difficulty of catching their attention as they primarily focus on cultivating friendships within their creative community. However, they acknowledge that it doesn't mean that connections with non-artists are impossible. They recall instances where people who are not artists have reached out to them with heartfelt stories about how their work resonated with them on a deep emotional level. These interactions have touched the artist and opened the door for meaningful friendships beyond the realm of art.
The artist also acknowledges that their work, once shared with the world, takes on a life of its own. It becomes something separate from the artist, and people interact with it in various ways, sometimes unrelated to the artist's intentions. This is the power of art - it has the ability to evoke emotions and create connections that transcend the boundaries of art forms or artistic backgrounds.
The conversation then shifts to the changing landscape of art consumption, particularly in the age of social media and the rise of NFTs (non-fungible tokens). The artist acknowledges that they did not initially come to social media to sell their art, but it happened organically. They believe that the true power of art lies in the emotional connection it creates with viewers, regardless of whether they are artists or not, or whether they are interested in buying or selling art for profit.
The artist emphasizes that their approach to art is not solely focused on selling or aesthetics, but on creating work that is accessible and speaks to the human experience. They express a desire to break out of their creative community and connect with a wider audience, learn from them, and express what needs to be expressed for the betterment of humanity.
Summer is convinced that the power of connection in art goes beyond the boundaries of artists or photographers. Genuine expression and emotional connection are what truly matter in the world of art, and these connections can be formed with anyone, regardless of their artistic background or intentions. Art has the ability to transcend boundaries and create meaningful connections that have the potential to transform lives, and that is the true power of art. Even when the art elicits terror, dread, despair or confusion from the audience.
Transcript
00:00
Man, yeah, all of the leaves have fallen near me and I wanted to get more pictures of trees like that and I missed it. Yeah, Cintra's... Like, climbing off. I dead-ass thought this thing was fake. I'm not even gonna front it. I mean, the top of it, like, I completed the circle just at that really, really, really top little part. I like put some leaves there, but it does, like, look pretty much exactly like that.
00:31
is real. So it is. Um cool okay so I guess we are basically set. Um welcome to the Void Blanket episode three talking about photography on NFT today. Um on the hot seat we got Summer Wagner, Bug and Dreamland, a person with a camera. That's the shortest by I've ever seen.
00:59
currently sitting at a whopping 4,502 followers. I don't know how long you've been active for, but it says you've been out around since September of 2021, which is, damn, that's crazy. You've been busy. September was only a month ago, and you're already sitting with 4K. I guess we're gonna start with that. What was your debut on Twitter land like? Oh.
01:26
I had been taking pictures for the previous year. So in October I started taking pictures and had been just like really manically shooting all year trying to get better. And I was posting my stuff on Instagram, but kind of just for me, I didn't really have any ambitions with it or anything. But then I started to get really...
01:55
like censored on Instagram and they were like threatening to take my account away and like shadow banning me and shit so I was like whatever I'll just like see what's up with Twitter because I had some friends uh like tell me that Twitter was kind of just like a good space for um photographers like in the sense that I could another thing that I was experiencing on Instagram was like
02:24
I just wasn't meeting anybody who was like helping me grow. It was very isolated. So yeah, I ended up going on Twitter. Oh my God, I dropped my phone. I ended up going on Twitter and, uh, just posted my work that I've been taking for the previous year, um, and interacting and asking questions and learning from people. And yeah.
02:55
Well, to say that your debut was explosive would be an understatement. For someone who's only been around for a couple of months, your presence is definitely noticeable. I mean, you're essentially a staple of both the NFT ecosystem and the photography ecosystem all in one. Like, what's that like being so recognized this early on?
03:22
I don't know, I guess it feels a little like surreal. I don't like, I have sometimes a hard time connecting and staying connected like on the internet, on social media. I think it can be kind of overwhelming.
03:45
So there have been points of anxiety, like, oh my God, I gotta keep up and figure out what to do with this traction. But then of course it also feels really good and I feel like finally I'm meeting people who are just really inspiring and who really feel my work and resonate with these genuine expressions and that's really the most meaningful thing.
04:15
It's just like, I was posting my stuff into the ether kind of, and it was really just for me, but that's kind of lonely. So it's been really nice to meet people and to feel like a pulse and a resonation with what I'm kind of contemplating over here.
04:36
Yes, that's wild. I mean, the works picture itself obviously, so I'm actually not surprised it caught on. By my account, by my account, this sort of aesthetic has been rolling Twitter for quite some time now. This very dreamscape-like kind of, kind of vinyard going on there. I think you came at the right place at the right time.
05:04
at the intersection of the big boom of NFTs and you found your crowd quite instantly. But as far as the kinds of people that you had an eye on like walking in like in your name issue that either you take a model after or you just enjoy their content. Yeah. Oh, there's like plenty of people. I feel like...
05:34
my mind was really opened up to kind of a new world in photography when I, cause you know, Instagram can be very like portrait, celebrity, that kind of stuff, which is cool and inspiring in its own ways, but then I came to Twitter and like I think the first like big people who I was like, oh wow, like this stuff is amazing. It's like, uh.
06:03
Uh, let's see, Connor, mind wanders, loved his stuff. Um, Austin, I think his thing is Austin visuals. Um, Tide-eyed, Pony Girl. Like all of these people have just become like total, like baseline. Though they were definitely the first accounts that I interacted with where I was like, we are speaking in the same world. Ben Zank. I'd been following him on Instagram for like a minute. Um, it was always very inspired by him.
06:33
Brooke T. DiNatto. Uh.
06:38
trying to think of who else, there's plenty more. But those are the ones off the top of my head who like when I first got here, I was like, okay, I'm just gonna start learning from like them and interacting and, you know, feeling their work.
06:58
Yeah, the, uh, uh, you and these folks definitely have quite a lot in common. Um, the surrealism aspect of it, um, the very, uh, dreamscape like kind of content you guys have to offer. Um, also obviously, you know, like, um, I feel like chances are like someone on Twitter that, you know, enjoys, you know, visual media, I have seen, you know, you guys' work, so it's kind of insane that like.
07:29
You have a lot in common with them, but at the same time, you're kind of branching out doing your own thing. So how do you handle that? Have people ever pointed fingers at you, kind of like pointing out the whole comparison kind of thing? And that's before NFT, obviously, right? Because NFT's kind of went differently. It was more open-ended and like...
07:58
borrowing and collaboration is more so encouraged, but before your NFT debut and transition, have you had anyone pointing out similarities between you and these people's works? Yeah, I think that there is kind of a similar world. And it even would happen with all of a sudden, those people would follow me.
08:24
and would be appreciating my stuff. And I think that that's where we found the similarities too, is just like, oh, we're speaking the same language and now we're going to interact with each other knowing that that's kind of, that we're in the same world and we're dreaming the same things, which is pretty cool. And then in terms of comparison, I've got, I don't know. I don't know that I've gotten too much.
08:54
direct comparison to other people that much. Maybe that's something that people try, like not to do as much is to like compare each other. I don't know. It's an interesting question. I think we just feel it. We just feel that we're in the same dreamscape. You know what I mean? And that's, I also try to be careful like.
09:21
you know, to respect people's creative visions and to not do anything too similar and stuff like that because there's a fine line there, you know?
09:37
I don't know if that made sense, that response, please. No, no. Take your time to, you know, elaborate on your thoughts. It's not supposed to be a rapid fire session by any means. And it definitely all makes sense. What I'm observing from my standpoint, I mean, I didn't just, you know, crash into Twitter just because of photography. I'm someone who's multidisciplinary by trade.
10:05
I'm actually a polymath and a polyglot. And it's one of these things where it's like limiting myself to a particular area in the arena. It's not really gonna serve me too well in the long run because this language that you speak of. Polymath. Yeah, a polymath is someone who essentially has like an interest in like several areas of knowledge. So that could be the sciences, poetry, so on and so forth. And
10:34
A polyglot is someone who speaks several languages, and in my case, I speak five. So. Oh. Well. Right? Yeah. Right. I grew up outside of the West. I actually found myself in here when I was a teenager and I grew up in this environment, but the environment never really affected me all that much.
11:03
I came in with a pretty wired brain to begin with and I kind of just utilized the resources at my disposal and I tapped into them here to just expand my mind even further. I have a curiosity for things. It's really what I really like to pride myself on. I'm cleverly conscious as someone put it recently. I'm just digging. I hope to learn something along the way.
11:33
As far as your work is concerned, yeah, it is interesting that you brought up the topic of language. I mean, visual media obviously has a component of language in itself. There's a reason why when you look at the era of arts over the course of history, you'll find impressionism, realism, and then absurdism and so on and so forth. So they definitely share a similar trend, if you will.
12:03
So as far as you know your visual language, both in the context of you being in a vacuum, but also compared to your peers, what would you refer to this visual language as?
12:20
I mean, some of the words that we've been using already, like the dreamscape kind of vibe. I think it's definitely a type of surrealism, the blending of reality and dream. And I think a lot of us are also kind of contemplating, like...
12:50
the mourning or the loss or the merging of natural environments or the merging of the urban and the natural environment is something that I see a lot too. I'm not sure how, I'm not an academic art person, so I couldn't tell you exactly where this might fall.
13:18
in academic terms, but I think that those are words or ways that I see my work and others who are similar kind of like contemplating those themes and these ideas and using surreal elements and obviously Photoshop. Well I don't use too much Photoshop, I use a lot of Lightroom, but using the camera to kind of create these.
13:46
unnaturally natural scenes.
13:52
That's gonna be a quote for the books. That should be a brand. Creating unnaturally natural landscapes. I fuck with that.
14:06
Yeah. And that's really, I think, what I try to capture in my work is just this feeling of like, these spiritual, surreal moments that we have are real and are natural. Just because we don't see them doesn't mean that they're not real, but we can create images that express those feelings. And I feel like that's really what I'm trying to do.
14:35
when I create pictures.
14:46
So when you examine the body of work that you've put out on Twitter so far, are you able to draw any comparison to what, you know, like a year ago, two years ago, and so on and so forth, all the way tracing back to when you first got into photography? And as a follow-up to that, you could definitely talk about why I didn't introduce you to the medium to begin with.
15:15
Yeah, oh my god. So I studied film production in school and in college. And so I had my hands on a camera.
15:29
because I was in school for film, but my emphasis was in directing. So I actually very early on, like within the first year of school, was very alienated from the camera and was doing just directing, working with cinematographers and hyper-focused in that specific field and career. And then COVID happened and I...
15:58
was in my last semester. So I graduated spring of 2019, and that's when COVID happened. So I was forced, I was living in Los Angeles. I'd lived in LA for the last 10 years because my family lived there as well, but they had moved back to Illinois. And so then COVID happened, I moved back to the Midwest during COVID, and it was kind of just like, I had to accept the reality that life wasn't gonna happen the way I thought it would. I was working at a grocery store for like,
16:29
nine or 10 months. And then October of last year, my friend lent me her camera. And, cause I was like, okay, I just want to start taking pictures to make some money on the side. So I started with like family and like, you know, that type of stuff. I was like charging literally either nothing or like $50 a session just to get practice. So I started with portraits.
16:58
October of last year and had really been doing portraits for a minute, like pretty much until February maybe? And then I started to do, then I had my first kind of like, okay I want to try something a little bit more artistic and it was my first photo shoot in the
17:28
We all took some pictures in the snow. These really crazy, ethereal snow pictures. I've actually haven't posted very many at all from this set because it's a lot of nude bodies and I'm not sure the comfortability level of everybody has maybe changed since then. But anyways, that was my first. So February of last year, I think. February, March was that shoot.
17:57
So that kind of sparked this whole wave of like doing more surreal pieces. And then really it was this summer, this past summer that really like I was shooting long exposures and more like cinematic scenes quite frequently. And then honestly, this is like the truth of the matter. Uh, since being on Twitter.
18:24
I've started shooting in a different way now, and it's helped me grow a lot. Now I shoot more landscapes, I shoot things without people in them, which I used to be very tied to the portrait, like way too tethered to the portrait and didn't allow my imagination to open up to the character of like non-human things as much. And now I'm really getting into that. So that's kind of my whole journey over the last year of taking pictures.
18:53
And my work has changed drastically and it's gotten a lot better. So that's good. That feels really good.
19:01
Well, certainly four dozen people will agree with what you have to say on that topic. Um, I, um, I think, uh, I think you definitely satisfy a very interesting niche. The visual consumption of what Twitter has to offer. Um, Twitter is a, it is a big place, I mean, it's nothing new, but what I've noticed fairly consistently is that, unlike Instagram...
19:31
Content doesn't really compete for attention here. People essentially just dive into what they prefer to dive into and they kind of allow that to naturally follow up. I mean, even Twitter nowadays, they have a feature that they wrote out where when you follow someone, it suggests you a list of accounts that they think you should be following as well.
19:57
as to essentially hint at the fact that these people make similar work. And definitely those names that you mentioned, you know, Tide-Eyed and Connor and so on and so forth, they popped up as soon as I clicked the follow button for the first time. So I was not surprised at all. Um, I truly assumed that this particular subsection of the photographers had like a lot.
20:26
to deal with each other because um, NFT aside like I kinda noticed I was a limp.
20:34
assembly going on. It's like people that do similar work and then tend to bend together a lot. I see a lot of urban folks doing urban stuff, you know, like Driftz does. And I see portrait folks doing, you know, portrait stuff, of course. And then here's you, kind of stuck more or less in between doing, well, navigating the unnaturally natural, as you so adequately put it.
21:03
And how has that been working out? Like, when that's been the experience so far, as far as the community aspect of this whole ecosystem? It's been great. I like, kind of like I said earlier, I do like have, I'm an introvert. So I'm an introvert with extroverted qualities. Like I can be very extroverted. I love making people feel warm, but I get tired and I like recluse. So I've-
21:33
like been going through this ebb and flow of like just being so excited about the community and being in the ecosystem and then having like an anxiety attack about like, oh my God, I'm not giving enough. I need a break, blah, blah, blah. I think a lot of people are experiencing that though. But overall, um, I'd say that like the vast majority of the people who I've like met and interacted with here are just really nice and like are really in it for.
22:02
just the art and for growing and learning together. And the algorithms do like reinforce little bubbles. And I try to, I love that because I'm seeing my friends work all the time. And then also I try to break out of that like a little ecosystem thing that I think about sometimes because you wanna meet a ton of people. And also I wanna like
22:31
be following more like artists who aren't photographers, because I have always gotten a lot of inspiration from like other forms of art. But yeah, generally the community is just awesome. I'm making so many friends. I haven't met anybody in person yet, but I'm hoping to meet a couple in the next few weeks. Austin's actually coming to Chicago, so.
22:56
Hopefully we'll be shooting sometime next week together. I have a few locations I want to take them to. That would be sick if that works out. And that actually there are like other people, particularly with the NFT stuff. There are a few people who I've gotten really close with and talk to almost every day now, like not even on Twitter. And that's kind of crazy and surreal. I've made internet friends before, but like not like this. So it feels really good, a little scary.
23:27
a little.
23:30
I don't know, it's just exciting overall, I think. More than anything, it's just exciting, and I'm really learning how to love a bunch of people all at once, and it's great. I've been observing what's been going on with this recent trend of folks essentially allowing themselves to become closer and intimate with folks that...
23:59
they meet online. I come from that era where the internet was seen as this giant boogie man that was looking to steal your credit card and phone and your social security number and ruin your whole life. But there seems to be an openness for people to form connections here and my question to you would be as far as that connection is concerned, how has it sparked and how have you?
24:29
discovered the possibilities that come from that with meaning of Bolshevah. AVI on lies that you probably never even saw the faces of. Sorry, you cut out for a second there. What was the first part of your sentence? Oh, I was more so referring to the fact that on the internet, it's fairly common to, or at least like back before, you know, like the bull, the social media bull, it was common to refer to the internet as a scary place where-
24:57
shouldn't be interacting or talking to strangers and here you are talking about making friends with people that are on the internet and likely you never even have seen their face to begin with so like how do you reconcile that as far as you know real friendships and when I say real I obviously mean you know like in real life in person compared to you know virtual.
25:27
at just being able to navigate online social situations and learn very quickly and know who to trust and who to not trust and who to invest time into and who to not invest time into. And I'm trying to learn from those people because I actually struggle with that in my real life, with meeting normal people.
25:57
like in person. So like even online it's like even more difficult sometimes for me to like navigate impressions. I don't think everybody struggles with that, thank God, but I think that's something that I do struggle with. So it's kind of a weird thing me being on the internet and like trying to be vulnerable but
26:26
giving love and feeding into people who are being kind, but also being able to recognize when people aren't being straightforward. So it's been kind of hard for me, and I do have a lot of anxiety about it, but I'm also trying to exercise muscles that I haven't had to, or that I have been afraid to use, and learn how to navigate that and feel comfortable with it. Overall, it's not like I feel unsafe. I don't feel like somebody's gonna come murder me in my house.
26:56
It's more of just like I have as an introvert, like a certain level of like capacity of being able to interact. And I wanna make sure that I'm like feeding into interactions that are going to be life-giving to me as well. So learning how to like cultivate that type of an ecology in my space, that type of a community in my space.
27:23
is like something that I'm still really, really learning how to do, which is interesting. So these connections that you're speaking of, how likely would they be to occur had the people involved not been photographers or even not been artists at all, like just, you know, good old regular old folks that were just happened, that just so happens to, you know.
27:51
really support your stuff and put it out there? Would there be any difference in your cell? What are they? That's such an interesting question. I think that looking at my interactions with people, I guess it's definitely more difficult for somebody who's not an artist to catch my attention.
28:20
because there might not be like as much, like I'm not really using the space to cultivate friendships outside of my creative endeavors. I'm not really creating the space for that purpose, but that doesn't mean that that can't happen. And I can think of like a few examples where people have like commented on my work.
28:50
and have been very vulnerable. For example, one person DM'd me, a person who's not an artist or anything, she DM'd me this incredibly beautiful story about a piece that I made that just totally resonated with her. And she was like, it reminds me of my grandma who passed away and just laid down all of these connections. She just put so much time and love into like,
29:19
doing my art and it meant something to her and that meant like something to me. So I think if people like really resonate with my work and like find something deep, like a deep connection through what I'm expressing vulnerably in my pieces, then there's like definitely always going to be like a door open for people who want to interact and like have a friendship that's outside of like photography.
29:49
or outside of the general scene of the space. I'd say that that happens less often though, because maybe a connection like that, maybe somebody has that type of a deep experience with my work and it's outside of me. You know, like I think when I put stuff out there, that work is its own thing, you know, and I think people interact with it. A lot of the times people interact with it.
30:18
as such, as something that is separate from the artist. And that's fine too. And like, that is my gift to the earth.
30:30
I've been listening to what you were saying and as far as the consistency of you challenging yourself to experience what is unnatural to you definitely is there, so I'll applaud that. I find that you're at an interesting intersection of what visual medium
30:59
consumption even means on social media and on the internet by extension. Um, and there's going to be a point where, um, for lack of a better term, we'll have to choose. And what I mean by that is, um, you know, as NFTs we'll be taking more and more of a foothold, um, into, you know, all the industries, um, and as, um, people that were not necessarily, um, artistically inclined per se.
31:28
still express interest in what you have to offer, do you feel like that'll create a divide as far as the kinds of people you'll ultimately choose to associate with? Because say for example someone that only cares about the work solely for the purpose of ultimately flipping it for a profit or just folks that
31:57
not necessarily care about the photography, but they still engage with you and still create opportunities and space for this course. Like, how do you feel about all that? I see what you're saying. Yeah, I think that like, I mean, I didn't come to Twitter to sell my photography. That was something that just kind of happened that I did not expect.
32:28
So I definitely think that the power behind my photos and the photo community in general is a lot of the times in the relationship that the photo, even more so than me maybe, for me in particular. The photo is like empowered through the...
32:57
emotional process that it connects with the people who view it, whether or not they're a photographer, whether or not they are in the NFT space or whatever. And that is what's most important at the end of the day because that's where the genuine expression comes from. And so genuine expression for me, because I think it's different for everybody. Some people can make...
33:26
a cool photo and will have the social capacity to teeter their way up and sell this photo for 100 ETH and it's awesome for them and that's cool. That is just not my approach. It's actually outside of my capacities, I believe, to be able to do something like that. And my approach is like sheerly through making stuff that is accessible.
33:55
to people emotionally, and that can just speak to a human experience that's not specific to a photographer or to an aesthetic that's going to sell, but specific to just humanists. And um...
34:13
And that connection is like, I mean, I've never taken the time to like really look at who's interacting with my stuff. Holy, but I would be very, it would be very hard for me to believe that like everybody who's interacting or feeling my work is like solely a photographer or even an artist. And I would love to like even break out more and like have more access to people and be able to learn from them and express what needs to be expressed for.
34:43
All of us. Oh, so I consume photography on Twitter and across all showing the art forms and I post fairly regularly myself when it comes to photography too and I kind of realized really quickly that it wasn't really an avenue, I wasn't really particularly looking to invest that much.
35:13
my time in tool although the process of making and editing and then posting what I end up making I'm fully investing in tool sometimes toolfile to be honest I'll actually have a hiccup and not post anything for a while just because I'm trying to figure out the perfect shot because my selection is pretty huge I have like
35:41
a whole library of like 30,000 pictures just sitting there. I don't really know what to do with it. And I never really got into photography because I had something to say. I just, the way I like to describe myself to be honest is someone who just happens to have a camera and that camera captures what I see. And I never really tried to, you know, depict a scene or push a message of any kind.
36:11
aside from, hey, this is my world and you're living in it, so how do you feel about that? And here you are just doing, in essence, the complete opposite. It sounds, at least from what I'm hearing, photography is a very personal endeavor to you and it has allowed you to find the people that definitely function on that same wavelength and
36:40
I think it can be difficult for people to manifest that willingness to attach that much meaning into their work somehow. I know I definitely suffer from it, but as far as picking and compositing, you know, like a good shot, it'll be a shot that's good enough for you to put out there and share with people.
37:11
What's the process like? How do you go about picking what works, what doesn't, and how does using different types of camera affect the process to, I think, something that's worth mentioning.
37:30
Um, I think it's changed over the course of like the last, um, month or so. Um, like I said, since I've been on Twitter, I have, I used to do a lot more portraits and was like, maybe a little bit more intense with myself about like what I would want to put out there. It has to be the best. It has to be this or that. It has to be like really, you know, like it has to be very in-
37:59
involved. These are all subconscious thoughts, I think, that I was thinking. But now I'm kind of like, yeah, I just have a, I'm just a person with a camera and I know that if I have my camera with me and I have the courage to like take pictures of where I'm at and I try not to overshoot because it can be exhausting, but if I have the courage to just go out there and like
38:29
say I'm gonna go see some stuff today, then I know myself well enough, I believe in my skill enough and in my expression enough that I could create something out of whatever shooting session I have and then feel confident sharing it and posting it and having people experience what I experienced in that session.
38:58
Um, I do think that like there is also now that like there's financial components involved with having a presence online and selling NFTs and all this. It's like a little bit more complicated than just doing whatever I want, which is unfortunate. But I don't think that that's necessarily a bad thing. In some ways it's
39:27
In a lot of ways actually, it's helped me become better at curating my work and not just posting to post, but to post because it's something that I really feel is an expression of a good moment that I've had with my camera. Because I feel like it can get exhausting to feel like, oh, I gotta post today, I gotta post today. Just to keep up, just to let the algorithm know I'm still alive.
39:57
You know?
40:01
Yeah, and blurring the line between posting for the sake of posting and posting with an end goal that can get tricky real fast. I chose to be involved into the NFT ecosystem because I for one closely examined the technicalities of what that entails and I followed a lot of what the...
40:30
the discourse between Vitalik and Charles, more about, for context, for those that are listening, these guys are the co-founders of Ethereum, one of the most popular cryptocurrencies right now, arguably the most popular in its own regards, especially comparatively to Bitcoin. But I've been seeing that slow transition into...
41:00
creators and consumers too actually, just looking at what they consume differently and attach a certain incentive that is financial to it. How do you see that affecting this particular demographic that you serve?
41:27
What are the pros, what are the cons, and ultimately, do you see NFTs serving a bigger goal in the long term?
41:41
Yeah, that's a great question. I am by no means an expert. I think about these things a lot without having maybe like enough context, because I'm still very much so learning. But I think that there's a naive...
42:07
a naivety to thinking that NFTs are going to change the world in like a drastically positive way off the bat. I think that the work to be done to dismantle the old world is going to have to be fought in the NFT space in the sense that like artists are still having our, like we are in a bubble like
42:35
Artists are not going to all of a sudden be paid thousands of dollars for their work all the time. The more people, like people say, like the more people come in, the better it is for all of us. In a way, yes, that's totally true. In another way, like the more celebrity becomes part of the NFT space, the less I'll be able to charge for my work. Even like minor.
43:05
celebrity, you know what I mean? Just like followers, like people who have a ton of followers and stuff. So...
43:14
I feel like I'm going off on a tangent a little bit, but I guess I see the NFT technology being very positive in the sense that we can ground our work in a way that hasn't been possible, especially for photographers, because now that most people shoot digital, the print has become virtually worthless. Very, very hard to sell prints. But an NFT is so much more credible. It's just...
43:43
it does the same thing a print would do, which is very exciting and means a lot to a lot of artists. So I think it's like there's definitely some, I have mixed feelings on everything, and that's only because I think I just don't know enough and want to be cautious about all of my thoughts and everything. That is very valid. So as you were,
44:12
expressing your thoughts, you mentioned social media and the numbers aspect. And obviously, as I stated initially, you became somewhat of a stature both in the NFT ecosystem and the photography ecosystem. And how do you handle that notoriety? How do you see that affecting the image that people have of you and your work?
44:40
Ultimately, what are your views on the relationship with social media and in the cloud aspect of it?
44:51
Um, I think that like, it would be awesome. I mean, I have like a particular politic emotionally and internally, um, that would, if it would love to see a world where social media is not what it is and where, you know, we don't have to compete for likes or, um, we don't have to, you know, sell our soul.
45:21
to pay riot and shit like that. Um.
45:29
but I am also a realistic person and don't wanna live a miserable life and would love to have a ton of followers that really connect with my work and be able to make a living off of my art. And I think something that is difficult for me to accept is the reality of what I have to do in order to achieve that, which is to just, you know.
45:59
do what I'm doing. And like, you gotta chill a little bit. You gotta, you gotta be concerned about about what type of a presence you have online, and be mindful of that and participate in it. Sometimes in ways that feel a little less comfortable than others. And you have to, I think that it's like, I really, really understand why people
46:28
Cultivate a followership and I admire people who do it Even though in a perfect world. I wish just the best art would sell Just because it's the best art and stuff like that. I don't know if that answered your question
46:48
It definitely gave me an insight into the kind of mind behind the work. So as far as outcomes are, it works. I think you're definitely an interesting case study, both from a technical perspective and an artistic perspective. Here you are that has had a presence in the Twitter ecosystem for fairly...
47:17
recently and you definitely got there pretty fast. And a lot of the newcomers that are, you know, currently experiencing the gold rush of NFTs and all that, they're going to be looking at you. They're going to take something away from you and the way they interact with both the work and the people talking about the work. So.
47:45
What would be your message to the Spring poll as far as that perception is concerned?
47:53
When I first got into space, somebody gave me the best, two people gave me the best advice I've ever gotten as like a photographer and as somebody on social media. And that was curate your work, like learn the art of curating. And my success on Twitter, I'm pretty sure, which is like minuscule comparatively, but what I have experienced has been because of
48:22
like taking the time to have my work be really cohesive with itself and to...
48:32
take the time to make it cohesive. That's like an active process, whether it be editing your pictures to look like good together, or whether it be being mindful about which pieces you post next, like within a day or within a few days. And like, how do you want people to perceive like your work and who you are, or who you are through your work? And like, how can you be mindful about that?
49:01
were questions that people asked me when I first got into the space that really really helped me grow as an artist.
49:11
So, to provide a little bit of insight to the people that, as I stated, are looking to get started and are looking to maximize their energy spend, building a legacy here. What have you noticed as far as, you know, what worked out for you? At around...
49:39
At which point did you notice the increase of traffic on your page and what were the tactics that you yourself noticed that you were engaged into that allowed you to fall into that success? Ultimately minor success, but success nonetheless compared to someone who's a hundred followers and has no likes on their stuff because ultimately everyone wants to come here and have their stuff be seen and get feedback, right? Mm-hmm.
50:08
Um, I think it was like I did when I first got onto Twitter. I was like, I don't know how to meet anybody. So I was like, and I don't know how to get people to see my work. So people talk a lot of shit on those like, post your best blue photos. All right, friends, post your best city shots, leading lines, blah, blah, blah. Like those are cheesy posts and whatever, but I will say that I think a lot of. People.
50:38
that opened doors for me to get people to see my work because I wasn't getting my work seen when I was just posting before. I stopped doing that because I didn't have to do it anymore. But if you're like really new and you were just getting onto Twitter, whatever, like do what you gotta do to just think about how do I get my work like seen by people and like what are people responding to? And I really listened to what people were responding to. Like...
51:06
What was like my portraits, for example, which I do have like some cool portraits, I think, but they weren't doing as well, not nearly as well as like my surreal stuff. So I was like, all right, this space is for my surreal stuff and I'm going to like lean into that. And then another thing that really you can see it if you like look down my page all the way down is like the sets of four where it's color graded altogether.
51:35
It was huge. Like the color grading is like very appealing to people in this space when it all goes together as a cohesive set. And that's kind of what I mean by curation too. I think that that made a big difference in like how people were responding to my page because I was like utilizing.
51:55
Um, utilizing the Twitter platform, you know, like how it's designed to work. And I think that's why people respond really well to those types of pictures. Mm-hmm. Um, so I spoke to, uh, another, um, peer that I've been following for quite some time, they, uh, they do painting, uh, digital actually. Um, and.
52:25
They went on to explain to me that part of the reason why they saw success as far as the visibility of their work has to do with engaging with people that not only have bigger platforms than they do, that enjoy what they have to post, but also involving themselves in group chats. How much of that, as far as ratio goes, do you think plays into the success that you've seen over time?
52:55
Um, I think...
53:01
I think that uh...
53:05
It, the bigger accounts, I wasn't really interacting with the bigger accounts as much, to be honest, until people with maybe like between...
53:20
I don't know, like 2000 to 6000 followers I was interacting with more. Just interacting with their work and that's, that was just what my algorithm was like putting in my, on my feed. And I would like, like and retweet bigger account stuff, but it's when like, I just started to get more people with like average followings.
53:49
re-tweeting my stuff that the bigger accounts started to follow me. And then it was like the interaction with those bigger accounts was happening more. Um, and I'm like kind of verbally processing because I haven't really thought about it that much, uh, about how it happened. But I think that that makes sense because you know, when you have like 40,000 followers, 70,000 followers, like
54:18
people are hitting you. Like I already get a lot of like DMs and stuff that's like, just I don't even, you know, I can't possibly interact with everybody. So if you have like 70,000 followers and you get hundreds and hundreds of comments on each of your pictures, it's just not, it's very unlikely that just hitting them up all the time is going to be successful in my mind.
54:48
or like help them help you see the work. I think it really is just about having like your community genuinely share your stuff.
55:03
that's going to like have you get access to bigger accounts because that's where the credibility comes from, you know, like it's from your community validating your...
55:19
your work? Let's go into a little bit of a more fun territory if we will. So as far as your work is concerned and the content that you choose to engage with to some aspect, you know, like, I mean, as you were saying, right, like you, you wouldn't necessarily pay attention to every single thing that you have to do. But
55:47
if you kind of look back in hindsight and observe, you know, the patterns of what you're engaged with personally, like, do you see yourself being selective of what you either interact with or retweet and whatnot, or is it something that's more organic? Or as far as the content of, like, say, up and commerce, like, that, say, someone hits you up and say, hey, like,
56:17
I've made this and I hope you see that and I hope you share that. Like if you actually do vibe with it or if you don't vibe with it, like what's your ethic as far as like sharing their stuff? Because there's quite a few I've seen myself over time as I, you know, grew my own little gathering of people supporting my own work.
56:42
Yeah, I think for me, I just try to be really genuine about it. Like, if I like it, I'll retweet it. And if I, you know, if I think it fits into kind of my own expression, I'll retweet it. Um...
57:00
And I think that I really try to be genuine about that stuff. Really, really try to. It's hard too, I think sometimes, because there's also social ties, you know? Like somebody who I really like as a person makes something that I'm like, eh, you know, maybe not my cup of tea. I wanna retweet it. Do I retweet it? I don't know. Sometimes I do, and sometimes I don't. And I think that that's just fine. You know, I don't expect.
57:29
everybody to always retweet my stuff because that's their choice and even if I'm really close friends with them, like, you know, it's up to them to curate their own page and I don't really take those kinds of things personally and if, like, I don't consider, I think some people might subconsciously or consciously consider, like, does this post have enough likes or is this popular enough or am I thinking about what other people like?
57:58
I try not to think about that. I really, really do try to think about just what I like, you know, like what is really, what I find beautiful or meaningful or expressive. And usually if I retweet something, I will also comment down it to just let people know that I really like it. But if some, I have gotten it, I have had it happen both from friends and from random people where they ask me to like retweet something.
58:26
And I have to say that that does make me feel kind of uncomfortable. Um, I get it, you know, like you are looking to have more exposure and you feel like maybe the algorithm isn't on your side. Uh, I get that. But I just feel like that's putting somebody who could be a friend in like a difficult position, um, to like, I just think it's kind of socially a weird thing to do.
58:55
And it does make me feel uncomfortable because sometimes I'm like, yo, you know, I don't really like this. I, it's just not my, I don't think it's, in some cases it's been, I don't think this is your best work. I don't think it's like something that I feel. So it feels weird when people ask me to do that. I'd be curious to know what your thoughts on that are.
59:20
Well, as I stated briefly when I was talking about my relationship with the photography that I put out, I'm not really doing it for the sake of making something that has that deeper meaning to begin with. Although it is very loaded with meaning in itself, and that's mostly because in the way I choose to approach my...
59:49
artistic expression if you will. I just captures as much of what's in my head as possible. I vomit a lot of what I have in my head into my work and sometimes people will mistake that as like you know the word being deep but it's really not. It's in a lot of ways it's a coping mechanism. If it's not me posting you know work on the internet for people to see.
01:00:18
chances are it's me engaging in some form of self harm of some kind. So therapy is what I'm really hinting at here. So it's part of why I never really thought of like content on the internet in general as like what's worthy, what's not worthy. I just put stuff out there and I interact with stuff as to my leisure.
01:00:48
And, you know, I'm multidisciplinary, obviously. So I think, hmm, I think when it comes to, you know, limiting yourself to a particular kind of interaction can be detrimental. That's, that's how I personally feel about it because the kind of content that I consume on a regular basis now, I would never have had the opportunity to consume it if it wasn't for me purposely breaking the shackles of what we referred to as the algorithm. Which.
01:01:18
By the way, on Twitter, I've spoken to people that have a little bit of knowledge as far as the technical side of how that works, and it's not. Referring to it as an algorithm would be a little bit misguided because Twitter functions differently than the way Instagram does, for example, right? Instagram is more relying upon the core engagement of the people that care about what you do, and it does translate over on Twitter, of course, but
01:01:47
Twitter is more about riding the wave of a trend of some kind. And it could be caused by someone that's bigger than you that you follow or someone that just really really goes out of their way to push your stuff out there somehow. Or just you being around at the right place at the right time causing... I guess you could say...
01:02:16
a gathering of people showing your stuff. And it's real time, you know? Something that I think makes Twitter interesting as a place to interact with some visual content on is the fact that you can actually see in real time a lot of the stuff that could potentially become the next big thing. And that's obviously speaking from an NFC perspective since you know it's really what the ecosystem...
01:02:46
I chose to navigate in for the most part. But even outside of that context, you know, like, it's always fun for me to go out of my way to pick out what could potentially blow up, you know, in the next couple of days. More often than not, I end up being pretty right. I've seen people go on to get an extreme amount of success in what they do, both financially and...
01:03:15
I guess I could say, um...
01:03:18
um attention wise um although although personally um attention isn't really what i on social media for um i uh i don't i actually don't quite care about likes or followers or anything that like relates to status whatsoever because i embody the weptree mentality to an extreme degree and i can put some people off actually um i've seen that happen a couple of times um
01:03:47
I'll go on spaces and like talk to people that have like millions of followers like they were you know my neighbor down the street or some guy I ran into while I was having a beer or some shit. So I feel like for whatever reason people expect a certain amount of like gravitas as far as like referring to someone that's like in a position that's you know quote unquote higher than you and I don't do that. And that's mostly because I'm very aware of what
01:04:15
parasocial relationships due to you as a person. And for those of you that are not familiar with what that is, it's a psychological concept that's described in the wake of influencer culture and celebrity culture by extension where people form some sort of attachment with someone that they never met, that they don't know that well, or if at all, and they...
01:04:44
become and carry themselves as if this person was their end all be all in that they want to revolve their life around them and I find that to be a dangerous behavior to engage them. Don't get me wrong, it is very much possible to form and attach genuine connection with people of mine because I've had that happen to me. One of my most important photosets that I've ever taken actually was the result of a five year long relationship with someone that I first met on Twitter.
01:05:14
through tags actually. And we went on to essentially chase each other around from Florida to Boston to New York and eventually to California where we finally got to meet just one time for a single day before I left the West Coast back to the East Coast. And that particular set holds a lot of meaning for me. But, you know, that instance aside, I...
01:05:44
I generally chose to carry myself in the way that a collector with a fuck ton of money would carry himself, and that means that like, if I see something I like, and I can actually get it, as in NFTs, I'll definitely get it, and I'll make sure to let the person that made it, that yo, like, you make good shit that actually wanted to grab that, so, kudos to you, but I also go out of my way to interact with the smaller accounts.
01:06:10
Even those that you know, quote unquote, spam my inbox with, you know, can you retweet this? Can you share that? Because, again, referring to the web-through mentality of like collaboration over everything, you know, obviously there is a degree where it's like, people are clearly using you for the cloud, but I'm a pretty perceptive individual and I can tell whenever someone is just using me for the sake of doing so versus.
01:06:40
someone who just wants to get their stuff out there man and it's not that deep for me whatsoever. Matter of fact, I have a couple of like high profile like celebrities quote unquote that follow me right now and I'm just sitting here like okay well it's another day on the metaverse like what do they actually have to say though? What do they think about? What are their values? What value do they bring to the temple as far as you know the community itself here and
01:07:08
the real world around them, you know, like it's all these factors that I tend to observe and care about because through spaces I've met some wildly interesting people that I otherwise would not have met. And I valued that way more than the likes and the clout and the work. And I know it was a little bit of a elongated response, but I think it was going into the nuances was necessary.
01:07:43
Yeah, no, I really appreciate you expressing all of that. And like, I just really share your heart on a lot of that, because ideally, it wouldn't be about the clout. It's not about, you know, making things that are going to blow up. It's just about making things that feel real and interacting with people that feel real. And a lot of people, and going back to what I was kind of saying earlier,
01:08:13
The problem with me is that sometimes I have a hard time discerning. I don't know, maybe I'm like a little bit, I was homeschooled, so I got some like shit going on there where I can't like understand people quite so well. But I have a hard time discerning when people are being genuine and when people aren't being genuine. So I just like set some boundaries for myself regarding that until it becomes very clear to me that people are being genuine or not genuine.
01:08:43
Um, and I really want to surround myself with people who are like on that wavelength. Like I'm not concerned about like becoming famous or like, I don't share a lot of, I like sharing my life sometimes because my friends are on here and I'm making a lot of friends and that's cool. I'm not too concerned with sharing my life all the time because it's, like I said earlier, it's not really about me. Uh, my work is detached from myself at a certain point after I put it out there.
01:09:14
And I think that people forming unhealthy attachments to the person happens so much on Instagram, which is another reason why I just wasn't hitting it off with Instagram because I just wasn't willing to participate in that. So I appreciate that about Twitter. And yeah, I wanna like cultivate like just genuine relationships with people who are.
01:09:41
who are just kind of in the same mindset. You call it the Web3 mindset. Then yeah, like that collaborative, egalitarian worldview is something that's really important to me as well.
01:09:56
I'm gonna eat a dragon puff, so if you hear crunching. No, you're good. Can I humanize the conversation a little bit? I definitely enjoy what Twitter currently has to offer. This space feature is a game changer for me and has allowed me to appreciate both people and content in a way I otherwise would never have.
01:10:25
had the possibility to do. And one of my favorite pastime is to just hop on here, pop the space and just scroll on the timeline and just put stuff up on the jumbotron and just keep scrolling as people are having that in their conversations. So in a way I kind of like work like a, like a projectory of sorceress, like curating the background of like what the cover is like.
01:10:54
or how the convoy is evolving. And sometimes it affects the convoy, sometimes not at all. But regardless, I just, I don't know. It's kind of like a see what I see kind of thing that is in a way an extension of what I've been putting out to begin with. As far as my photography is concerned, I just really like dissecting people's perspectives because I...
01:11:24
Unlike you, I definitely did not experience the whole like homeschool life, although I grew up an only child and that affected a lot of like my social cues at first, but as I navigated the world, especially later on as an adult, I found myself in situations where I would interact with people constantly on a regular basis and that informed me a lot about how...
01:11:53
I get really small-minded, most people tend to be. I don't really mean that as an offense or whatever, but coming here as an immigrant, a black Caribbean immigrant, having to explain to people what's other than, what's different than, and have them respond to me with laughter or mockery has really informed my approach as far as interacting with people. And really...
01:12:20
giving them the benefit of the doubt that like, yeah, they don't know any better because they haven't been anywhere else or they haven't, you know, put themselves out there in a way where they can navigate different circles and environments. And it's something I will forever champion until my, my expiration date comes. Because if you look at the way the brain functions,
01:12:48
and how since childhood it's an ever-expanding blob of like data and information and just neurons just like expanding and craving that expansion more and more importantly that just you know like it's it it would be a shame to just stick stick in one particular lane and then not appreciate what's out there in the the
01:13:18
the amount of greatness and vastness that the world actually has to offer. Even right now, you know, like on Twitter spaces, you know, like I'll hop on and at any given time there's always someone talking and it's going to be somewhere around the world and it's kind of like a little bit of a dice game of like figuring out, I wonder what these people are going to be talking about this time. And you never know what to expect. You'll find your crowd, you'll find...
01:13:46
and people that oppose your views, you'll find people that agree to disagree, you'll find people that flat out despise you. I myself have found quite a lot of people that either hate me for me or hate me for my work, because apparently I'm an opposer, which is like the most hilarious thing that I've ever heard in my entire life. Because...
01:14:11
Long story short, some of my photography has got the attention of certain people that were a little bit snobby about the art form and they were saying that, why do you edit your work to make it look like film? And now it's like, well, first of all, it is kind of the point and second of all, it's not supposed to make it look like something. It's just, it's me expressing in my own way what the moment felt like and conveying that to people is not about.
01:14:40
passing it as something it's not and it's just, it's what I'm talking about, right? This idea that when people find themselves stuck in a bubble long enough, suddenly they have the inability to be rational anymore and I find that that above all else is probably the number one issue that we collectively face as a species on this planet.
01:15:08
Hmm. I'm sorry to hear that people are bigoted to you or have been, and also that people like find it necessary to be unwarrantedly critical of your work. I just don't think that criticism is like something that's at all necessary unless it's welcomed or asked for. So that's totally interesting that people.
01:15:38
are just crosses. Those boundaries or barriers or whatever seems silly to me.
01:15:48
Also, I've had instances where I would, you know, talk about my working spaces too, and it would very much be on topic, and I would be met with pushback of like, oh, wait, we didn't ask you to share your work, and it was like, oh, it was like kind of like an omelette of like, oh, they, uh, they did a little like private circle thing, not so much like, you know, open to everybody else, but more so, you know, for their particular group, and
01:16:15
Again, it's just like this extension of like group think that like, um, I, I try to avoid as much as possible when I can, um, how I can, um, and just, you know, encourage people that either interact with me or that, um, happen to see what I'm putting out that like, hey, um, it's okay to be multifaceted. It's definitely okay to navigate foreign territories. And, um, I think, I think ultimately it serves you.
01:16:45
so much in the long run as far as making you a well-rounded person who has the capacity to tap into different areas of themselves to enhance something that otherwise would just be pretty stale and boring.
01:17:06
Yeah. Yeah, I think we definitely, I mean, it's, it's hard. I think people are going to feel protective of their, their spaces and their own little communities. And I personally feel like not very offended by that. Um, is it hurtful sometimes? Yes. Like, to not be invited, but I don't
01:17:35
really feel offended by it. I feel like people have their... It's... That's the community that they're making, that's the community that they're making. But... What's not cool is like... The... Weird transactional clout shit that's happening.
01:17:55
Not a fan of that. So, um, with that said, I think this is going to be like the second to last section of the chat where I essentially just, um, rapid fire a bunch of like posts that you wouldn't get like your impression of them, like how you feel about them and, um, and yeah, like, so if you look up at the, uh, Jumbotron, you'll see that there's a selection of pictures. I want you to go through each of them individually and give me like your honest impression of that. Um.
01:18:25
And not so much as a photographer per se, but just so kind of like seeing like what she's seeing and kind of depicting like what you think about it. Okay. Picture number one is a black cat that I'm seeing. Is this correct? Starting place? Um, uh, black cat, black cat. Uh, yes. Black cat. Yep. Okay. Yeah. Kind of a breeding black cat.
01:18:52
by like a snowy landscape. Maybe there's some other animals in the background, which give me the feeling that this cat is kind of the sacred protector of this space. I really like this picture because I really like cats. And this cat looks very good and mysterious. I like how the blacks are crushed, giving the cat that beautiful shadowy aura.
01:19:22
Next one is the pixel art of another black cat. I love pixel art. I really do. Same. I like this and I'm going to retweet it.
01:19:35
I need to follow more pixel art accounts to be honest, so I'm gonna follow them too. Sure, you're in luck. I literally got a whole list of happily send out your wine. Oh, please do. Okay, we got a cat with a little fishy in its mouth. Very cute. Very proud of this fish. Looks like this cat is a city cat navigating the streets of the big city, which is also pretty cool. Makes this cat even more badass.
01:20:04
Mom? It looks like, it's like, yeah, I stole that fish. Fuck, you're gonna do about it. What the fuck are you gonna do about it? You gonna chase me down, Mel? And then we got, ooh, what are your posts? Posts, punks are strong. They know how to heal and see better than most of the structures in place, harming them. Their battles is ongoing until they finally rest. Oh, and this is a picture of a.
01:20:32
of somebody who might have a punk aesthetic.
01:20:36
with a hat on. Oh, looks nice and cozy with some friends. Actually, we're very similar tattoo to the one that she has on the back of her arm. Actually, it's very similar and it's a very- That's a boy. Oh, I'm sorry. No, you're good, you're good. It's actually part of the fun, to be honest. Like every time like me and Demi talk about this and it's like, yeah, like people's or some, people's-
01:21:05
nature nurturing by society will just you know affect their perception of things and it's okay um it'd be like that but yeah that would be definitely a boy. Do they use he him pronouns? Sure do. Dope. So he's got a tattoo that's very similar to one that I have on my left arm um that looks like it says right arm
01:21:31
But I have a moth tattoo. Actually, no, I have it in the same place. I forgot that it's on my right arm. So we've got matching tattoos. Pretty cool. I like the one where they're kicking. Also, let's see. I like, oh, I like this one with the rainbows where the two of them are like layered over one another. That's fun.
01:21:57
It's interesting that you referred to them as a girl, though, because it was like a back picture, and it was kind of like the fun of it, kind of like getting people's impression of like what it is and what it's not. I've seen a lot of interesting comments about that particular collection, to be honest, and I'm someone who heavily infuses queerness into what I make. It's not like over it, and since it's like, yeah, like...
01:22:27
We gay keep scrolling, it's more like inviting people into a world of possibilities that, you know, something that is other existent.
01:22:37
I'd best challenge their perspective on what they see it as and not worse, um, telling them to fuck off. Cause you know, I've had plenty of interaction with people that just see me for what I'm actually not. And it gets old. Gotta stand your ground eventually.
01:22:56
Yeah, I mean, looking at these photos, I would have, all of them, I would have guessed that this person was used she, her pronouns, not just from the back, but from also these pictures that show his face as well. So that's very interesting. I think, yeah, pronouns are... Gender is so fluid and it doesn't...
01:23:25
I personally believe that gender doesn't have to exist in the way that it does. So it's cool seeing that your photography is exploring those things. And last but not least, let's throw a little bit of a curveball and have a meme up on the Jumbotron.
01:23:51
I'm waiting patiently for the meat. Yeah, it should pop up.
01:24:08
Worst case scenario, I'll DM it to you directly, because sometimes spaces can be- Oh, there it is. Okay, good. Let's see.
01:24:20
I'm a communist and what are you? I'm an anarchist. Cool. Can we be friends until the revolution? After that, it gets difficult. Accurate. It's not even difficult in the revolution. People are larping around causing conflicts between themselves. I used to do some community organizing and was in a communist organization. Um, and.
01:24:45
I was in a couple actually, one was a national org and one was a smaller local one. And man that shit just fucking, don't get me wrong, my politics are the same, but there's so much stupid drama, like so much stupid drama that gets started and it is tearing the movement apart. In other words, water is wet, what else is new?
01:25:15
I've documented a bunch of events and whatnot in the spark of this whole George Floyd stuff. Yeah, like a lot of what I'm observing on Twitter honestly is like the exact same thing I would observe in real life and it ties back into my desire to invite people into rational thinking and...
01:25:41
Careful thinking as well. I think careful thinking is more important than rational because you can definitely make rational decisions and still end up affecting people and all you didn't intend but Well, when you're careful about what you think and how you express these thoughts suddenly, you know, like it's it's a whole it's a whole new world out there and Hopefully one day at a time like people figure out how to get the shit together
01:26:10
because I'm not a teacher and I'm certainly not a lecturer so I'm not gonna be out here just telling people you know like what is good or bad. But I'm not a fan of like what the world has turned into over the past, I'd say, five to 10 years. There's seemingly like a decline in society but there is also some good things. So I'm mostly trying.
01:26:38
I'm mostly trying to emphasize the good more so than the bad. Um... And hopefully seeing something tangible out of that because Lord knows the world is already depressing enough as it is.
01:26:54
Yeah, world is just crazy and you know we don't have control over it. We just don't. We kind of just got to roll with the punches and to be good people as good that we can and have control over what we have control over. I do have to go because I have to go look at an apartment. So I'm going to have to peace out here, but it was really nice talking to you. We've been connected on here for.
01:27:23
pretty much since I got here. So it's good to finally hear your voice and see what you're all about. Yeah, it's actually interesting. We got on Twitter relatively around the same time, but yeah, like I'm glad that like you went on to get the recognition that you deserve and definitely looking forward to see you, you know, get that drift type sales. Oh, pardon, my dog is barking. No, you're good. Like, I'm gonna talk about like where...
01:27:53
Why my own natural scene go instead of your vans and shit? Yes. Sorry, y'all. I gotta pass. I gotta get gonged. My gongs butt. Punch a hole in the window at the mailman. It was good to see you. Thanks for sharing your work. Oh, thank you so much. We'll stay in touch. Later and bye. Peace. Sky...kin.
01:28:23
Kim, say Kim Mark. What's that man? Hey, uh, it's me, you know me. Uh, well, I'm the guy from the Minutes of the Vaginas. Here's yours. Um, here. And now, alone, because, well, we're kind of bossed for endowed on the project, so it'll take us like a week, so I just decided to pop in and join to speak about art and general and like, photography. Um, maybe, I don't know.
01:28:52
Add some salt civets, okay? So what's up? I haven't been on Twitter for like two weeks. I mostly lost track of how long Twitter has been Twittering, but I've seen achievements, some minor, some major, and I'm just rolling with the flow, man. Seeing, you know, like, cool stuff is currently happening, and like, what's the meaning of it all?
01:29:23
I've been consuming a lot of cat content lately too, so that's fun. But yeah, I mean, not much has changed to be honest. I mean, it's just the whole regular stuff of NFT people trying to rush in, hopefully securing themselves some sales and having people just doing their usual, this is better, this is worse, shilling.
01:29:52
grilling, you know, the usual, you know, that bit of crazy. Uh, right now I film myself in like this strange spot. Uh, like, uh, I have ADHD and you know, uh, it kind of affects me in a way that it's hard for me to work in the one thing for a long time. So, uh, right now, um, I bought a typewriter and now I'm writing a children's book for some reason. Like I just.
01:30:20
decided to you know find something that I can work on while I'm burned out my major project So then I had another two projects and now I'm writing children's book and my first language isn't even English So I'm like, oh my god, there are so many things and I also have to get back in Twitter. So It's like crazy Kind of happy that actually your space is a popular because you're
01:30:50
really nice guy and you help so many like artists and it's like great
01:30:58
I mean, I appreciate the recognition. All I would say to that is that I don't really see what I'm doing as something that, you know, crazy to do. It only seems that the natural thing to do, but apparently doing the unnatural in a space where, you know, everything is the usual behavior is to, you know, engage in like...
01:31:27
putting someone else down and, you know, snuffing them out and taking away and whatnot. I feel like I've been there done that, you know, like, go get me wrong. I didn't start out this way. I've had to evolve a lot over time, but, um, yeah, I'm at a place right now where I've been pieced with the fact that, you know, I'm a fucked up person. The least I can do now is figure out what behaviors I can engage in to just, you know,
01:31:57
connect with people again because I've definitely struggled to connect with people for the longest of time. A lot of that has to do with abuse more so than actual mess-ups on my part but you can justify abuse all you want you know like abuse doesn't make you valid for being shitty to other people yeah this NFT ecosystem is like the great spot for people to just
01:32:26
make the world great again.
01:32:54
When I tried to be on Spaces for like a month, I personally felt so tired for the rest of the day that I was like, Oh my God, I cannot keep up. And you're being host, so you're like the big person in Spaces. And it's like, oh my God, it's really hard to just speak so much and, you know, get out there and talk to people so much.
01:33:24
My podcast background definitely didn't hurt. My mom actually is a journalist by trade, bless her soul. And I observed a lot of what I now do and I embody that capacity that she had to engage with people and keep them engaged, more importantly. I think, I don't know, I'm just someone having fun on my phone and...
01:33:52
If it gets me someplace, then yeah, sure, why not? If it doesn't, I don't really care. Like I was saying earlier, I'm at this point right now where I'm so okay with how things will go because there's so much that we don't control in the world anyway. Just focus on living, on here, and now focus on expressing yourself.
01:34:22
as long as you don't harm other people, obviously. And stay healthy, both physically and mentally. You know, keep learning, keep challenging yourself to expand more. And yeah, spaces can definitely be draining. And I've definitely experienced my fair share of burnout. So I've been redesigning my approach to them.
01:34:52
stopping altogether but you know it's worked and I recently passed the good old you know like 2k so I feel like it's going to be fitting with the t2k in my name so that's also a plus my collection is doing pretty alright for something that's been dropped for only like a month ago and yeah now it's a matter of like
01:35:20
executing and just you know building upon the vision more and more and just doing more critical shit and hopefully be at the stage where i can you know change people's lives because that's the goal it always has been i'm also happy that you're not like the p2p project guy i know that you get into p2p projects but i mean you're really here for the art mostly and it's kind of really cool because
01:35:49
Right now, as never before, I see this big divide between P2P projects and artists, and it seems like they've become much more, you know, separated and polarized than before.
01:36:06
Yeah, well, I don't... It really comes down to a fairly simple concept, right? It's this idea that... What do I like and why shouldn't get recognition, you know? I try to stay away from any patterns of thinking that forces me to think of something as more deserving than the other. And I'm not a fan. I'll just engage with anything and anyone in good faith that...
01:36:35
They have something of value to bring to the conversation. And hopefully learn from that. I mean, I have people that write, that do podcasts, that do NFTs, that do arts, that don't do anything actually. And people that do memes and people that do sex work and so on and so forth. And there is a very broad stroke of like.
01:37:01
represented demographics and the people that I both follow and people that follow me and I find I find that experience to be really enriching you know like um it never gets old for me to jump on my timeline and just see completely or widely unrelated like stuff just pop up and I'm just cracking myself up just like yeah I've that that's my bed and I'm gonna lay in it
01:37:29
Um, right now you're in the U S right.
01:37:34
Right, North America, yeah.
01:37:37
Um, how do you find it there? Like generally, because, uh, there are many mixed messages about it.
01:37:45
Uh... Yeah, you know... I don't really have a thought about the place to say it to be honest. I'm just someone who happens to be here and I'm just living with the reality of it ever since. Um...
01:38:00
I mean there's some cool stuff to be seeing here but ideally if I could I travel to Europe actually because I find there's more interesting stuff to be seeing over there than here in the US where people tend to be fairly ignorant from my personal experience. And it's not to say that like everyone is ignorant but I'm just over it all like you know.
01:38:28
Yeah, yeah, America this, America that, culture this, culture that. And half people in one single country so not agree on the most random of shit and I'm just sitting here like, well, that's exhausting, that's draining. And I sure as fuck don't feel like my rights will ever be valued in any way, shape or form here. So I'll dip the second I get the chance to do so along the way.
01:38:56
I'll get to get a couple of cool shots if I can. Why not? Um... Well, are you thinking to move to the U.S. or are you just like... Uh... From the U.S. to the U.S. or are you just like... Telling that you might want to travel?
01:39:13
Well, I want to travel, it's not a might, it's one, but right now obviously, um, when the state of the world is in, it's not really advisable, um, and even if I, even if I could, I can right now, so I'm just, you know, slowly building what I can right now, to the measure of my ability, and NFTs have offered me the opportunity to touch, um,
01:39:41
the world in a way that I never really was able to go for it and I find that great, I find that interesting, I find that useful and in due time I will see the benefit of me grinding my ass off and really putting my name out there to whatever people not happen to see it or know it. Just good luck.
01:40:09
keep the work steady and let the work speak for itself because I definitely have been lacking on that aspect and that's mostly due to depression if you think but now I'm finally in a place where it's like okay I can actually step back in the push shield that I can just you know start you know putting out stuff that resonate with my vision again and connect with people that you know involve themselves in that vision and yeah it's gonna be great
01:40:41
I recently have calculated the expense of my medication in the US if I decided to live there. It's somewhere about $5,000 a month, when in Europe it's $200. So it's kind of crazy how overpriced medication is there. I mean, I'm just getting regular asthma treatment and ADHD treatment, which is like nothing. And I mean, there I would probably just, you know, have poverty or something.
01:41:15
Again, I get most of the medication costs covered by the insurance, but I mean, if you move to the US, as far as I know, you don't get the insurance covering your health problems before you got sick in the US. So if I mean, if I was, if I got sick in the US, they would cover it. But because I had those conditions for my entire life, it's like they probably would not.
01:41:49
I have no idea. This country is fucked up in so many ways. People say it's a free country, you know, like a great country. It's definitely full of privileges, but a lot of people are suffering here and we essentially have to deal with it. And I don't think just shrugging along and saying that, well, Shiki Shih-Ah Shih-Ah is good enough.
01:42:19
never has been good enough for me. So, we'll see what it takes to get people to, you know, actively push back against this, um, lifestyle that, you know, they're, you know, allowing themselves to be subjugated to. I'm not a fan. Never will be. And that's why I went out of here. But in the meantime though, definitely will try and connect with some cool people, I don't know why.
01:42:49
I mean, what actually shocked me is, you know, the fact that like, as I see it, uh, most people with ADHD cannot, you know, they say, as far as I know, in America, they say, well, you got to work to earn money to pay for the like medication, but what's interesting is that you would probably not be able to even work if you don't get the treatment and you can't get the treatment because you don't have enough money and then it's like a infinity circle.
01:43:18
So, I mean, what do... I'm just scared of like people which are not so rich and which cannot afford insurance. What do they even like do to survive? To quote a very famous movie, I missed the power. That's my problem. That's like, that's like the most basic way I could summarize, you know, the mentality of the way system works in the US. It's like...
01:43:48
If it's not your problem, then you get to live a good life. And that's sad, man. It's sad it's fucked up. And I hope these people get to have access to something better. Because, man, I have Serenity of people that I know personally that live here. They're not constantly talking about wanting to commit suicide and...
01:44:14
just wanting to check out and that life is not really fulfilling for them.
01:44:21
I spoke to this blind individual from the NFTs space who told me, you know, verbatim that like, hey, it is fucked up that like as a blind person, they struggle to figure out how they're gonna be able to provide for themselves because, you know, they aren't blind. It's not a choice, you know. It's crazy, man. I mean, that is kind of really crazy because, well, Ukraine is not the best place as well. I mean, in here, it's hard to...
01:44:50
get access to a good health system or any sort of social security. But I mean, just recently I was in Italy and I found that people are not as anxious out there as in here. And I spoke to the people which live there. And one of the reasons is because they know they will live a good life. So I mean, even if everything goes wrong and I mean, you don't have a job.
01:45:20
you're poor and you're sick, they will still get free food, free shelter and they will find a job. And it's like crazy because you know they have this thing covered that they would not die from poverty or you know like get into some horrible situation that would just you know have the safety net and then just go and live a normal life. So I mean it's kind of crazy that in many countries you don't have like such a system that
01:45:49
you know, just protects people from the like falling down this, I know, like big hole where sometimes we fall, like losing, you know, money and losing everything with it. So I mean, I hope that more countries would provide that over time.
01:46:12
We'll see, we'll see. I don't know. I'm just going to ride this crashing spaceship for as long as I can and then hopefully make something out of that. Being on the NFT ecosystem definitely has made a difference for me. But some interesting individuals and...
01:46:37
I think the next step for me is to take this into the real world and see what else I can impact. I just gotta keep trying because as long as I'm around there's something out there that can be done. It's only a matter of figuring out how to do it. Well, NFTs are amazing in this way. I mean, NFTs change my life a lot.
01:47:05
many other artists. Like, you know, right now I have like, you know, a normal rented apartment because before that I was just living like a crappy one and you know, just for many more things just change it for many people. I mean artists finally got at least like some stuff which is amazing because before that, you know, many of
01:47:35
people I know were afraid to, you know, talk to their appearance because they will repeat them over and over the time, like get a normal job. And now people can actually find NFTs as normal job, which is really interesting.
01:47:51
Yeah, it reminds me of YouTube all over again, where they first introduced this idea that you could make money off of yourself, so we'll see. I'll afford to it, and even myself, I'm living this reality where people buy my work, and I'm happy and grateful that they do. And it has given me the motivation to make more, so...
01:48:19
Definitely keeping an eye out for that because um, I'm definitely in the stage race like yo, I'm all about content now and We are not fucking around But with that said, um, I've been on here for quite some time I'm trying to catch a break so I can go outside get some sun But I'll definitely be back later, um, you know hang out show some stuff that I've shot on and yeah
01:48:48
So it was a pleasure to see people.
01:48:54
So wait, are you going in right now?
01:49:00
Mmm, and then that's the five minutes. Yeah. Righty-o. Roger.
01:49:06
I was coming when you're ending this place. No, no, if you, um, if you missed anything, um, good news is, um, um, it's gonna be up at a podcast cause today was like, uh, an interview with type format going on, so you were right. Sweet.
01:49:37
The girl which we talked to, does she, how she knew I was a girl because I might have made a mistake, but she's really kind and I mean, really beautiful works out there.